Abortion.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Varg' post='1922623' date='Jul 17 2009, 09:57 AM']Denying the right to die is one of the cuellists things a human can do[/quote]
There is no such thing as a right to die.

[Varg]

Well there should be

[cmotherofpirl]

If you want to discuss that topic start a new thread please and thank you.

[Varg]

That's no problem mate have a great day

[Sirklawd]

[quote name='Varg' post='1922631' date='Jul 17 2009, 08:07 AM']That's no problem mate have a great day [/quote]

lol are you going to respond to any of these comments on abortion? just curious.

[tinytherese]

I noticed on facebook today that one of my friends became a fan of Planned Parenthood. It disturbed me.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Varg' post='1922610' date='Jul 17 2009, 08:49 AM']So you'd rather that someone suffered than had a quick and painless death and (according to you guys) went up into heaven and had a happy picnic time with Jesus and all his clouds? (this is about euthanasia, not abortion in case you're wondering)[/quote]
We believe that suffering can and does bring about good. See: Jesus.
[quote name='tinytherese' post='1922860' date='Jul 17 2009, 03:49 PM']I noticed on facebook today that one of my friends became a fan of Planned Parenthood. It disturbed me.[/quote]
I would have to hope if someone that I was friends with became a fan of PP, they truly didn't understand the organization or what its purpose is.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Varg' post='1921771' date='Jul 16 2009, 04:50 PM']Here's a hypothetical scenario: a woman gets raped. She becomes pregnant but decides to keep the baby, despite the fact that it was concieved through a malicious and dispicable act and she has no idea who the father is. Evertime she sees her child she is reminded of the time she was raped. The child is likely to hate itself once it finds out how it was concieved. Is this right? No, it isn't.[/quote]

Good question. Even if it is rare, this is definitely one of the most difficult scenarios to handle, especially when it comes to public policy and legislation.

Following the chain of events you set forth, the place to focus is this mother's decision to keep her child in spite of the circumstances of its conception. The fundamental question we need to ask is, do the circumstances in which a person is created change the dignity or worth of that person?

If so, then you get into the criteria that change a person's dignity or worth, and that's obviously very sticky territory.

If not, the answer is clear that a child conceived in rape deserves the same right be born and grow up as any other child, just as the children of poor families, black children, immigrants, and filthy rich kids all have a right to live.

The second point to clarify is that by giving life to her child, a mother is choosing to believe in hope and to believe that healing and good can come from even the worst evils in our world. If we don't believe this, what hope do we have? But if we do, this mother you're talking about can find healing from the pain of rape through her child and perhaps even consider herself fortunate to have the opportunity to love a child conceived in hate because it's helped her forgive and grow stronger in ways that she wouldn't have otherwise. This could prove a great encouragement to all rape victims, not to mention rapists who come to be convicted of their sins and seek forgiveness.

Of course, in this scenario, the child would value their life all the more, and perhaps find a unique identity in themselves because they're literally a walking testimony to good conquering evil. As an adult, he or she might even finally meet their biological father, which could be very healing for him.

[quote name='Varg' post='1921771' date='Jul 16 2009, 04:50 PM']And what of underage mothers or mothers who aren't financially apt or responsible enough to be parents? The child has a miserable life and so does the mother/parents. Women who get pregnant whilst still in education will have to sacrifice their social lives and their education. This, in my opinion, is not right.[/quote]

This one isn't as touchy as the rape situation. Yes, choosing to give life to a child involves sacrifice, but in life we learn and grow far more through sacrifice and challenges than anything else. It is nice to have a comfortable suburban home with a manicured lawn and all that junk, but plenty of children grow up with those things and would trade it all to have parents who care enough to set a curfew. In choosing life, parents give their child the one necessary element to grow up happy -- love -- and they'll find a way to take care of the rest. This is why we need communities, churches, and other forms of charity... we all experience hardship, but the real pain is feeling alone in the midst of it. Millions of people with children still have social lives and get an education. Children do not impede our progress in these areas, but they do give us even more purpose and reason to pursue them. After all, if we aren't raising and molding society's future, what good is improving it today?

[tinytherese]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' post='1922866' date='Jul 17 2009, 03:56 PM']We believe that suffering can and does bring about good. See: Jesus.

I would have to hope if someone that I was friends with became a fan of PP, they truly didn't understand the organization or what its purpose is.[/quote]

Indeed. It's ironic because this summer I'm doing volunteer work for an abstinence education organization in my home town and we discuss "the enemy" in the office quite a bit. It's absolutely sick how they actually want to have fourth graders and even KINDERGARDENERS go through sex ed. and the Q and A section on the planned parenthood sites about sex are just plain sickening- really personal questions and some that we suspect that Planned Parenthood might have just disguised as questions from teens that were really their own questioins. I've also seen this one commercial about their group being played on tv lately.

My little brother went to preschool with one of the kids of the head man at Planned Parenthood in my home town. And it's a Catholic school. He isn't Catholic though. It boggles my mind how he can perform late term abortions and then come home to his two small children. Well, I'll be praying for him and his family. I found out from one of my co-workers that when young girls go in for a pregnancy test that they lie to many of the girls telling them that they are pregnant when they're not. Then they go have an abortion and the clinic still performs it on them even though no baby is in her womb. That's how they make even more money. How very sad. Just think of the health risks and emotional and psychological pain when there wasn't even a baby. I told my mom this, who knows that man at Planned Parenthood and she wasn't convinced that he would allow that to go on, that he seemed to be such a man of honesty and intergrity. She also never even heard of FOCA until I told her about it in that conversation.

[Norseman82]

Rape or incest does not make the baby any less human, nor does it make the baby feel any less pain as the suction machine rips him/her to shreds.

The mother can put the baby up for adoption if the baby brings up memories of the rape.

Edited July 17, 2009 by Norseman82

[havok579257]

so instead of wanting to murder the rapists, you want to murder the child. That makes sense. I mean it is the childs fault the mother was raped and the child should pay for that.

Killing a child does nothing for anyone. The answer is really simple. What did the child do to deserve to be killed? The mother can have the baby and put the baby up for adoption right after their birth or hand them to an emt, firefighter or police officer the minute after they are born and there are no ramifications for the mother. In the end, the mother still has to deal with the rape, but did not kill a child and the child gets to live a life that did not end when he was born.

abortion and rape is such a stupid arguement. why should the child be killed for something he didn't do. if someone were to get raped, do they have the right to kill their 10 year old child because they can no longer deal with the child after the rape? so then why is it ok to kill a baby?

[Angel*Star]

How can you not like the idea of abortion and yet still think it is okay in cases of rape and underage pregnancies? That makes no sense.

Rape is wrong. Killing is wrong. Two wrongs don't make a right.

What about children "accidently" conceived? I have been called "a mistake". But you know what? I never really believed that. God wanted me here for a reason. And frankly, for a mistake I am doing pretty good. I have a good marriage and lots of beautiful children. They don't have what all the neighbors have (and we don't have what all the neighborhood parents have), but we have so much more because we have each other and we have a lot of fun together. Sometimes we play board games or watch a fun show (rented from the library). Our treats include snow cones and M&M's. Our life is simple, but we like it. And guess what? When we are playing outside and having watermelon, the neighborhood kids come and watch - waiting to be invited!

[Winchester]

[quote name='Varg' post='1921771' date='Jul 16 2009, 03:50 PM']I'd just like to start off by saying that I don't "like" the idea of abortion. I don't understand how anyone can "like" the idea of killing anyone, let alone something that hadn't had a chance at life. What's more I understand why people want abortion banned. But I think it should be allowed. I'm not a troll because trolls are idiots who try to upset as many people as possible to make themselves feel better about their own existence. I'm just stating my opinion.

Here's a hypothetical scenario: a woman gets raped. She becomes pregnant but decides to keep the baby, despite the fact that it was concieved through a malicious and dispicable act and she has no idea who the father is. Evertime she sees her child she is reminded of the time she was raped. The child is likely to hate itself once it finds out how it was concieved. Is this right? No, it isn't.

And what of underage mothers or mothers who aren't financially apt or responsible enough to be parents? The child has a miserable life and so does the mother/parents. Women who get pregnant whilst still in education will have to sacrifice their social lives and their education. This, in my opinion, is not right.

Discuss[/quote]
Because your question is rooted in pragmatism, it's nonsense for Catholic morality. You apparently value life in accord with its value to others, not as having value in itself.

[elizabeth09]

Well, Angel*Star does have a point. Two wrong do not make right. Once we have an abortion, the baby will come to hault the mother.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1922598' date='Jul 17 2009, 06:23 AM']From Lil Red's post"
QUOTE
2) “We now record fetal heartbeats at 14 days post-conception. We record fetal brainwaves at 39 days post-conception. And I don’t expect you to answer this, but I do expect you to pay attention to it as you contemplate these big issues. We have this schizophrenic rule of the law where we have defined death as the absence of those, but we refuse to define life as the presence of those.”
— – Sen.Tom Coburn, speaking to Supreme Court nominee Judge Sonia Sotomayor at confirmation hearing, July 15, 2009.

THanks Red!!!
This man is my new hero!!!!!![/quote]
What about when there is no heartbeat nor brainwave activity?