God Doesn't Care

[Hassan]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1921628' date='Jul 16 2009, 11:32 AM']Clearly your avatar shows you are a member of the handsome, charming, humble, and clever crowd.





HOTT.

(in a purely platonic way)[/quote]


Can I get some fries with that shake?

[Paddington]

Interesting.

Mapache thinks so too. He is eating steak.

[Marie-Therese]

[quote name='Paddington' post='1921975' date='Jul 16 2009, 07:19 PM']Interesting.

Mapache thinks so too. He is eating steak.[/quote]


This is the second time I have seen this reply, both in different threads. If you have something valuable to offer, please do. Otherwise, quit spamming threads with nonsense.

[bonkers]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1921969' date='Jul 16 2009, 07:13 PM']If God were to capriciously grant salvation to some because they had time to linger on their deathbeds, and deny it to others because they had the misfortune to die in an unforeseen car crash, how would that not be monstrous? It's unconscionable. But that is not what we believe about God. As I have repeatedly said, that's not how salvation operates, or how God interacts with human beings. I agree with you that the God you describe would be unjust ... but your description isn't consistent with God as he has been revealed through thousands of years.[/quote]

If this isn't what you believe about god, what do you believe then? If I'm ignorant, educate me. I don't want to hear "we don't know how god will judge" that is a cop out, and if so then we should make NO presumptions about who will get into heaven and who wont. But we have the bible and sacred tradition and set of instructions for attaining salvation. The bible says if you repent and put all your faith and trust in god and do good works you will go to heaven, and if you don't, you will go to hell. Consider the following scenario;

[i]Jill and Bill are atheists. One day Bill kills Jill instantly and Jill is sent to hell. Bill is convicted and sentenced to death. On death row, Bill repents and asks god for forgiveness. The following day Bill is exectuted and accepted into heaven.[/i]

Isn't this how god operates? Where is the straw man fallacy? I'm making no distortions, exagerrations or misrepresentaitons about god, I am not claiming he is monstrous (your straw man) just challenging the fairness of salvation. If this isn't how god operates, please show me how? How does god operate in this particular scenario?

[Marie-Therese]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1922017' date='Jul 16 2009, 08:14 PM'][i]Jill and Bill are atheists. One day Bill kills Jill instantly and Jill is sent to hell. Bill is convicted and sentenced to death. On death row, Bill repents and asks god for forgiveness. The following day Bill is exectuted and accepted into heaven.[/i][/quote]


Bonkers,

*sigh*

In these case of your hypothetical, yes, as I understand my faith, this scenario is true. What is your question? That someone who was killed through no fault of their own could end up in Hell, and that someone who committed murder could go to Heaven?

Your position does not reinforce your argument. So, according to you, if you are guilty of murder then there is no forgiveness for you? If you are a victim then you should deserve some mercy? This hypothetical completely disregards the fact that these 2 people lived complete lives where they made their own choices. Jill had the opportunity to choose repentance for her own faults but did not. Bill, though he had committed a grievous offense, did.

Let's take your hypothetical further. What if, the day before she was murdered, Jill had an abortion. What if Bill had spent his entire life (although an atheist) in public service and doing community volunteer work. Now what? Is Jill now just an innocent victim that a heartless God cast into Hell for no good reason? Is Bill some worthless scum that doesn't deserve a chance to repent?

There are always contingencies, always situations that complicate life. God knows this. That is why your continued insinuation that God is responsible for people going to Hell isn't a correct representation of the Catholic position. People make their own choices and are responsible for them, both in terms of their lives here on Earth and in terms of their relationship with God after their life here ends.

The only innocent victim is the unborn, or the mentally incapable who cannot defend themselves. All others are responsible for their own choices and the consequences of those choices. Bad things happen on Earth because it IS NOT HEAVEN. Sin is the reason for this. It is part and parcel of our human condition to deal with suffering.

There are hundreds of millions of hypothetical situations you could cook up to make yourself feel better about thinking that the Catholic faith is irrational, as most atheists do. (And don't forget I speak as a former atheist.) However, ultimately, these arguments tend to have a common thread, which is to posit that God and sin are just fallacies, and in so doing free oneself from the responsibilities of their sins, or at least to make an argument such as "well I may have lied but that guy is a murderer and so I am nowhere near as bad as he is."

Sin is sin. It might not make sense to us, but disobedience bears fruit, and that fruit is suffering. Each person is responsible for their own behavior. We as Catholics simply admit that there is a set of core Truths that we are subject to that do not necessarily come from our own desires. There IS, in fact, something greater than me.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1922017' date='Jul 16 2009, 08:14 PM']If this isn't what you believe about god, what do you believe then? If I'm ignorant, educate me. I don't want to hear "we don't know how god will judge" that is a cop out, and if so then we should make NO presumptions about who will get into heaven and who wont.[/quote]
[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1919512' date='Jul 14 2009, 11:32 AM']Every person has an opportunity to choose how they will respond to the truth that has been revealed to them, whether that's in the instant before they die or in the years leading up to that instant. We all have a chance.[/quote]
[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1919550' date='Jul 14 2009, 12:11 PM']Spiritual solace does not determine eternal destination. Your response to the grace offered to you does.[/quote]
Not everyone has access to the fullness of God's revelation. In fact, I think it's pretty easy to say that most people (taking into account the entire global population) don't know the whole story. But we all know something -- enough to make a decision about how we are going to respond to it. Consider Romans 1:20: "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."

The entire world around us, the created order, is a revelation of who God is, and by application of reason we can determine that God exists and that we must acknowledge him.

Salvation is available to all. Consider this snippet from [url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19"]Lumen Gentium[/url], which is a document penned during the Second Vatican Counsel:

[quote]16. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126); [b]But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. [/b]In the first place amongst these there are the Mohamedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) [b]Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.[/b](19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, "Preach the Gospel to every creature",(130) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention.[/quote]

It's not a simple "repent, put your faith in God, do good works, and be saved." There is more to the story, nuance that allows for individual workings of God's grace, and varying revelation of truth to different peoples in different times.

I believe God gives the opportunity for belief to every single person, regardless of their affiliation with the Catholic Church, regardless of nationality, place in history, etc. The amount of knowledge you have is not important. It's how you respond to the knowledge you have that is important.

[quote name='bonkers' post='1922017' date='Jul 16 2009, 08:14 PM'][i]Jill and Bill are atheists. One day Bill kills Jill instantly and Jill is sent to hell. Bill is convicted and sentenced to death. On death row, Bill repents and asks god for forgiveness. The following day Bill is exectuted and accepted into heaven.[/i]

Isn't this how god operates? Where is the straw man fallacy? I'm making no distortions, exagerrations or misrepresentaitons about god, I am not claiming he is monstrous (your straw man) just challenging the fairness of salvation. If this isn't how god operates, please show me how? How does god operate in this particular scenario?[/quote]
Your distortion, as I have said several times, lies in the fact that you take too simplistic a view of salvation and of God's working in people's lives. You create this rigid, black-and-white calculus by which a person either is saved or is not.

Like we have said, nothing prevents God from allowing anyone facing imminent death to assent in the final seconds of his or her life. Imminence of death is not important. Neither is the level of knowledge of God a person has attained. We all know enough to make a decision, one way or another. We all have as much time as we need.

To the best of my knowledge, the Church has never definitively stated that a certain person is in hell, although we do believe that there are some people we are certain are in heaven. These are the people we call "saints." My understanding (and someone can correct me if I am wrong), is that the reason we make no declaration about who is in hell is that we have hope for the salvation of all, and there remains hope that even the most heinous sinner at some point chose to acknowledge Truth. So I would say there is still hope for Jill. There is even hope for you.

[Kitty]

Can someone close this thread please?

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='Kitty' post='1922037' date='Jul 16 2009, 09:03 PM']Can someone close this thread please?[/quote]

Just don't post.

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[Sojourner]

[quote name='eagle_eye222001' post='1922128' date='Jul 16 2009, 11:23 PM']Just don't post.[/quote]
I think it's fine if she wants it closed. We can always continue the discussion elsewhere.

[elizabeth09]

Or open in the same spot.

[Kitty]

My intention of this thread was not to turn it into a ridiculous off topic argument.

[cmotherofpirl]

Kitty if you wish to refocus the discussion please do so, everybody else can get back on topic or please start new threads.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1922017' date='Jul 16 2009, 09:14 PM'][i]Jill and Bill are atheists. One day Bill kills Jill instantly and Jill is sent to hell. Bill is convicted and sentenced to death. On death row, Bill repents and asks god for forgiveness. The following day Bill is exectuted and accepted into heaven.[/i]

Isn't this how god operates? Where is the straw man fallacy? I'm making no distortions, exagerrations or misrepresentaitons about god, I am not claiming he is monstrous (your straw man) just challenging the fairness of salvation. If this isn't how god operates, please show me how? How does god operate in this particular scenario?[/quote]

Hopefully it's not too late to cool off a bit and be a bit more charitable with one another here...

We believe God lets us cooperate with him in many ways: buying a homeless guy a meal, for example. Even if both the homeless guy and the generous person who bought him a meal are atheists, the fact that a hungry person was fed is an act of mercy that ultimately comes from God.

However, one thing is solely in God's hands: that is judgment. God reveals much to us through the Old Covenant, through Christ, through the Scriptures and the Church, and all these can guide us to salvation. However, we all know these gifts from God are often distorted and abused, so there can also be a lot of confusion. But even in the act of excommunication, the Church cannot declare eternal judgment upon a person. An excommunicated person can go to heaven if God has mercy on them. Even Judas could be in heaven: the Church has never declared him to be damned. The Church obviously can declare that some people are in heaven, but never the other way, because we believe salvation is available to all people and pray for all people to be saved.

So in the case of Jill and Bill, based on what we know about God's mercy and justice, it's possible that God has mercy on Jill because she rejected Christianity because of a Christian's poor witness to the faith. Perhaps a pastor or someone she looked up to and respected did something that shattered her beliefs. Or maybe she has pursued reason and philosophy and simply not found good reason to believe in Christ, but we don't know what grace God might offer in the final breath of her life. Even if she only had a millisecond to recognize she was dying before she died, God -- who created time -- could make that millisecond count because we know God will go to hell and back to save Jill. Bending time (in Jill's perspective) would be a small feat.

In this scenario, let's say Jill goes to heaven. Since there is no sin in heaven, she has forgiven Bill and now she is even praying for him, and it is her prayers that bring about his conversion and allow him to be a witness to the Gospel while he has life remaining on earth. Hence, through his selfish act of murder God works two conversions and probably many more through the remainder of Bill's life.