God Doesn't Care

[Angel*Star]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1920466' date='Jul 15 2009, 01:21 AM']Yeah I used to be Catholic.[/quote]

Sadly, if you had learned your faith you still would be. You are always welcomed back home!

[Angel*Star]

Kitty,

I found this book titled, [i][/i][u]No One Cries the Wrong Way: Seeing God Through Tears[i][/i][/u] by Fr. Joe Kempf

I hear the book is good, I love the title. You continue to be in my thoughts and prayers.

[Proud2BCatholic139]

Trust in God's mercy! He is loving and merciful. I'm certain that he is a saint (a saint is anyone who is in Heaven.) If you have faith the size of a mustard seed and you trust in the Lord with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, you will move mountains!

With the Lord allowing this little boy to suffer, I'm sure the Lord loves this little boy very much to have this little boy partake in the Lord's suffering.

It may not make much sense now, but I am praying for you. You will see someday. So, rejoice and be glad.

Read the beatitudes in Matthew 5.

God love you!

[bonkers]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1920512' date='Jul 15 2009, 04:41 AM']If this were how God operated, it would be unjust. But there is no indication that this is how God truly operates.[/quote]

No indication? What's the bible for then? If you repent you get life, if you don't you get eternal damnation, and no crime is beyond forgiveness. These are the indications god has given us about his judgement, whether he bends his own rules or not is up to him, but then perhaps he doesn't. All you've got is faith that 'god is just' and no reason or logic to make any sense of it.

[quote]What you've done is create a straw man -- a misrepresentation of God's character and the manner in which he interacts with us. It's easy to understand why you might create such a misrepresentation. It's a lot easier to create something monstrous and dismiss it out of hand than to wrestle with the real claims of Christianity. Until you are ready to face up to the questions of who God really is and what he really does, and honestly weigh the answers in your own mind, you will never find peace.[/quote]

Perhaps you're the one who has created the straw man, god is a mystery after all isn't he? Again all you've got is faith that 'god is love' and 'god is good' and yet the world is full of hate, poverty and pain. I've already dealt with the claims of Christianity and found them to be unsound and baseless. I've found my salvation in atheism. As for peace, how can you have true peace when someone like Obama is orchestrating the deaths of millions of babies all over the world? I think claims like true peace and true happiness those are used as bait to lure the gullible and lost, the kind that cult leaders use.

[quote]I know you're a Catholic who has lost faith. I get that. There are lots of reasons that can happen. But the fact you are coming here and arguing with us leads me to believe something in you longs to come home. You aren't completely letting it go. The thing that will serve you best in dealing with that longing is honesty. You'll get nowhere without asking honest questions and honestly weighing the answers. God can handle your questions, and he can handle your disbelief. Just be honest.[/quote]

I come here to debate, learn and entertain myself, nothing more.

[bonkers]

[quote name='Angel*Star' post='1920680' date='Jul 15 2009, 01:25 PM']Sadly, if you had learned your faith you still would be. You are always welcomed back home![/quote]

I learned plenty, trust me. That's one of the main retorts Catholics use against apostates, that we must have been ignorant of something or unlearned, it couldn't be that why had a look at your claims and found them to be incredibly vacuous, it's got to do with a fault with us. But this is more of a defensive manouvre isn't it, with every deconversion there is a fear that perhaps that person is right, so our immedidate goal is to shoot them down and preserve our own delusional bubble.

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1921128' date='Jul 15 2009, 09:30 PM']No indication? What's the bible for then? If you repent you get life, if you don't you get eternal damnation, and no crime is beyond forgiveness. These are the indications god has given us about his judgement, whether he bends his own rules or not is up to him, but then perhaps he doesn't. All you've got is faith that 'god is just' and no reason or logic to make any sense of it.[/quote]

Not true.



[quote]Perhaps you're the one who has created the straw man, god is a mystery after all isn't he? Again all you've got is faith that 'god is love' and 'god is good' and yet the world is full of hate, poverty and pain.[/quote]

I don't suppose you would accept the concept of free will?

[quote]I've already dealt with the claims of Christianity and found them to be unsound and baseless.[/quote]

New thread topic? I'm interested. I doubt that they are unsound as you claim though. Is it really that deficient?

[quote]As for peace, how can you have true peace when someone like Obama is orchestrating the deaths of millions of babies all over the world? I think claims like true peace and true happiness those are used as bait to lure the gullible and lost, the kind that cult leaders use.

I come here to debate, learn and entertain myself, nothing more.[/quote]

Whoever claimed we lived in la-la land?

[quote name='bonkers' post='1921133' date='Jul 15 2009, 09:36 PM']I learned plenty, trust me. That's one of the main retorts Catholics use against apostates, that we must have been ignorant of something or unlearned, it couldn't be that why had a look at your claims and found them to be incredibly vacuous, it's got to do with a fault with us. But this is more of a defensive manouvre isn't it, with every deconversion there is a fear that perhaps that person is right, so our immedidate goal is to shoot them down and preserve our own delusional bubble.[/quote]

Works both ways. Many people become atheists because they see it as being an easy answer to life. Sort of like coping out. I've noticed atheists seem to have to consistently belittle religion as if they need to keep reaffirming their decision as if they are scared there is actually a God.

Would be interested in hearing what led you away and why.


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Now playing: [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/creed/track/what+if"]Creed - What If[/url]
via [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/"]FoxyTunes[/url]

[Sojourner]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1921128' date='Jul 15 2009, 09:30 PM']No indication? What's the bible for then? If you repent you get life, if you don't you get eternal damnation, and no crime is beyond forgiveness. These are the indications god has given us about his judgement, whether he bends his own rules or not is up to him, but then perhaps he doesn't. All you've got is faith that 'god is just' and no reason or logic to make any sense of it.

Perhaps you're the one who has created the straw man, god is a mystery after all isn't he? Again all you've got is faith that 'god is love' and 'god is good' and yet the world is full of hate, poverty and pain. I've already dealt with the claims of Christianity and found them to be unsound and baseless. I've found my salvation in atheism. As for peace, how can you have true peace when someone like Obama is orchestrating the deaths of millions of babies all over the world? I think claims like true peace and true happiness those are used as bait to lure the gullible and lost, the kind that cult leaders use.

I come here to debate, learn and entertain myself, nothing more.[/quote]
[quote]The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of "reasoning" has the following pattern:

1. Person A has position X.
2. Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).
3. Person B attacks position Y.
4. Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.

This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because attacking a distorted version of a position simply does not constitute an attack on the position itself. One might as well expect an attack on a poor drawing of a person to hurt the person.[/quote]

You are coming onto a Catholic board and arguing against your own definitions of God, his character, and his actions -- which is [b]not actually the Catholic position[/b]. Like I said, if God really was everything you said he was, he would be pretty monstrous. But that's not what Catholics believe God is, or how we believe he operates.

You want to argue about Catholicism? Great! You have come to the right place. But when you refuse, repeatedly, to [b]honestly acknowledge[/b] the Catholic claims about God and deal with [b]those claims[/b] and not your own distortions of those claims, it's pretty much pointless for any of us to engage you in debate.

[Winchester]

Why would an atheist waste his time, here? An agnostic, certainly, but all the non-religious folk here are dour and snippish, even the ones I like. Of course, some of the religious folk are pompous. But many of these are also incredibly handsome and charming. Humble, as well. Clever, too.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1921625' date='Jul 16 2009, 12:30 PM']Why would an atheist waste his time, here? An agnostic, certainly, but all the non-religious folk here are dour and snippish, even the ones I like. Of course, some of the religious folk are pompous. But many of these are also incredibly handsome and charming. Humble, as well. Clever, too.[/quote]
Clearly your avatar shows you are a member of the handsome, charming, humble, and clever crowd.





HOTT.

(in a purely platonic way)

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Angel*Star' post='1920680' date='Jul 15 2009, 03:25 PM']Sadly, if you had learned your faith you still would be. You are always welcomed back home![/quote]

FWIW, it's entirely possible for a faithful and knowledgeable Catholic to fall away. Everybody has weaknesses. Keep in mind that Satan did not fall from Heaven because he didn't know God or know about God: his sin is pride, and the same pride can cause anyone to abandon the Church.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1921128' date='Jul 15 2009, 10:30 PM']As for peace, how can you have true peace when someone like Obama is orchestrating the deaths of millions of babies all over the world? I think claims like true peace and true happiness those are used as bait to lure the gullible and lost, the kind that cult leaders use.[/quote]

True, the world will never be at peace; it will never be free of murder, theft, jealousy, adultery, and all forms of selfishness that rupture relationships. We call Jesus the Prince of Peace because we believe he is the ultimate and only source of true peace in the world. We also have peace within and among ourselves because our hope is in the Resurrection; we are sojourners/parishioners because our true home is free of murder, theft, jealous, and adultery; all these will be conquered so they have no power of us in this world. After all, the most heinous and offensive crime in human history bought our redemption.

[quote name='Winchester' post='1921625' date='Jul 16 2009, 01:30 PM']Why would an atheist waste his time, here? An agnostic, certainly, but all the non-religious folk here are dour and snippish, even the ones I like.[/quote]

I'd be more curious to know an agnostic would be here. An atheist has at least adopted some form of philosophy or belief about life, even if it's the rejection of all belief. Such a person could be drawn to religious forums, but an agnostic doesn't care enough to influence their own beliefs, much less anyone else's.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1921630' date='Jul 16 2009, 12:34 PM']FWIW, it's entirely possible for a faithful and knowledgeable Catholic to fall away. Everybody has weaknesses. Keep in mind that Satan did not fall from Heaven because he didn't know God or know about God: his sin is pride, and the same pride can cause anyone to abandon the Church.[/quote]
This is true. I think it's important to realize that reason/intellect -- head knowledge of the faith -- is only one aspect of being Catholic. We are called to love God with our whole persons -- body, mind, heart, and soul. I think in debates it is easy to focus exclusively on the "knowing" part of the faith and forget that there is more to people than their brains.

[bonkers]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1921557' date='Jul 16 2009, 10:46 AM']You are coming onto a Catholic board and arguing against your own definitions of God, his character, and his actions -- which is [b]not actually the Catholic position[/b]. Like I said, if God really was everything you said he was, he would be pretty monstrous. But that's not what Catholics believe God is, or how we believe he operates.

You want to argue about Catholicism? Great! You have come to the right place. But when you refuse, repeatedly, to [b]honestly acknowledge[/b] the Catholic claims about God and deal with [b]those claims[/b] and not your own distortions of those claims, it's pretty much pointless for any of us to engage you in debate.[/quote]

So basically what you're saying is god is beyond all scrutiny? I can't "honestly acknowledge" the Catholic claims about god becuase I think they are false. If I were to admit god is love and goodness and all that there wouldn't be much to argue would there? I never claimed god was monstrous just that it appears his methods of salvation are unjust or at least inconsistent with his alleged nature, that's not a straw man and I don't believe you've refuted any of my points. Often what it all boils down too is god's ways are mysterious and we just have to trust him, or we don't know and we should just keep our mouths shut.

[bonkers]

[quote name='eagle_eye222001' post='1921223' date='Jul 15 2009, 11:28 PM']Works both ways. Many people become atheists because they see it as being an easy answer to life. Sort of like coping out. I've noticed atheists seem to have to consistently belittle religion as if they need to keep reaffirming their decision as if they are scared there is actually a God.[/quote]

Sure, it works both ways. Some atheists just want to rebel and poke fun of religious people, and probably derive some sense of superiority out of it. Others might have been exposed to it as young people and came to recognise and hate the hypocrisy and fear mongering of it all. Like I siad earlier, every atheist is unique and has his own reasons for being one. Likewise, people find god(s) for all kinds of reasons, but I think most of the time there's an emotional need or weakness that needs to be plugged and religion can do that quite well.

[quote]Would be interested in hearing what led you away and why.[/quote]

Another time.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1921952' date='Jul 16 2009, 06:56 PM']So basically what you're saying is god is beyond all scrutiny?[/quote]
ha! You can't get away from your straw men! You keep distorting the arguments I've made so you can dismiss them with a breath. Poof!

I never said God is beyond scrutiny. In fact, what I said was
[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1920512' date='Jul 15 2009, 05:41 AM']You'll get nowhere without asking honest questions and honestly weighing the answers. God can handle your questions, and he can handle your disbelief. Just be honest.[/quote]
Scrutinize away. But if you're going to scrutinize, you should scrutinize [b]what we actually believe[/b] about God, not your made-up version.

[quote name='bonkers' post='1921952' date='Jul 16 2009, 06:56 PM']I can't "honestly acknowledge" the Catholic claims about god becuase I think they are false.[/quote]
No one is asking you to give assent to Catholic claims about God. But, if you are going to argue against Catholic beliefs about God, you should argue against the actual beliefs, not your distortions of them. Every time you have made mention of God, the "belief" you have argued against is not something that Catholics believe -- it is a distortion of your own construction. You say you came here to discuss and learn ... I have yet to see any desire to engage in actual discussion, or openness to instruction about what we really believe.

[quote name='bonkers' post='1921952' date='Jul 16 2009, 06:56 PM']I never claimed god was monstrous just that it appears his methods of salvation are unjust or at least inconsistent with his alleged nature, that's not a straw man and I don't believe you've refuted any of my points.[/quote]
First, you haven't made any points that have anything to do with God as we understand him.

If God were to capriciously grant salvation to some because they had time to linger on their deathbeds, and deny it to others because they had the misfortune to die in an unforeseen car crash, how would that not be monstrous? It's unconscionable. But that is not what we believe about God. As I have repeatedly said, that's not how salvation operates, or how God interacts with human beings. I agree with you that the God you describe would be unjust ... but your description isn't consistent with God as he has been revealed through thousands of years.

Your argument IS a straw man because of your repeated distortion of Catholic belief. Read the definition of the straw man fallacy again.

[quote name='bonkers' post='1921952' date='Jul 16 2009, 06:56 PM']Often what it all boils down too is god's ways are mysterious and we just have to trust him, or we don't know and we should just keep our mouths shut.[/quote]
God IS mysterious, but he has consistently revealed himself and his character to us so that we can know him. If you really want to talk about Catholicism, then great. I'm completely game. But so far, nothing you've said comports at all with Catholicism or with the Catholic claims about God.