God Doesn't Care

[Hassan]

[quote name='Brother Adam' post='1919410' date='Jul 14 2009, 01:40 AM']Kitty, Jesus love you this much.[/quote]

Actually that's James Patrick Caviezel


[quote]"[b]Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake[/b], and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church." Colossians 1:24

Part of growing in holiness is to not only accept, but to embrace suffering in whatever form it may come, because through our own sufferings we participate in the redemption of Christ. God has taken pain, and through the cross, redeemed it. Suffering does not come from God, but through our own cooperation suffering brings about great grace.[/quote]

meh

[quote]"He said to them in reply, "An evil and unfaithful generation seeks a sign, but no sign will be given it except the sign of Jonah the prophet." - Matthew 12:39[/quote]


"Eli Eli Lama Sabchthani"

Mark and Matthew. You can find the specific verse.

[quote]For as much suffering as I have seen in my life, suffering that results sometimes in the death of little children, I have accepted that while I wanted them to be healed, God wanted them home. I have seen God use suffering to bring people to salvation, and I have seen people who may never come to grips that God allows some to suffer for now, briefly, to bring about the ultimate good of salvation and eternal glory. God's plan is not our plan, but God loves us infinitely, more than our minuscule finite minds can imagine right now. I also know people who have been miraculously healed through relics, through prayer, and most of us, through the sacraments.

It is up to us to decide what to do with the own suffering that we have chosen for now - it can lead us either to eternal life, as John Paul II taught us, or it can lead to eternal death, as the devil wants.

You may reject him right now, but God loves you, and cares for you. God's plan for your life may not be to be happy right now, but he does want you holy, because he is your Father and you are his child. He wants to give you, unimaginable blessings, in this life, and the life to come, if only you will let him.[/quote]

Sad

[CatherineM]

My dad always said that even if you don't have time to finish a prayer before death, go ahead and start one. You can always finish it on the other side.

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='Varg' post='1919440' date='Jul 14 2009, 05:08 AM']She's lost someone very close to her and all you can do is argue about something that she has understandably lost faith in? You're cold.

Kitty, I'm so sorry for what happened.[/quote]

I thought this was a hypothetical example. The first post didn't seem to indicate (to me anyways) she actually lost someone and it seem to read as a hypothetical-example-starting-arguing point which many atheists typically use in their debate against God.


Kitty,

Sorry you had to go through that. Didn't mean to come across as "cold." I assure you if I knew you had lost someone in such a manner, I would have attempted to make sure my posts were in a more appropriate tone rather than a regular straightforward debate tone.

Will keep you in my prayers and I hope you find some good people to talk to as when we lose someone, it's important we work and talk ourselves through these very troubling life events.

Life is what it is, and we need to make to do what is healthy for us and that is to get back up on our feet and remind ourselves that there is still good in life. I pray and hope you are able to find peace.

-eagle


[quote name='tinytherese' post='1919555' date='Jul 14 2009, 12:16 PM']Now I understand that I can't read his mind nor his heart but I doubt that he is trying to sound cold or cruel. Please keep in mind that it is very difficult to talk online and the things that we say can be misinterpreted because we are not face to face and we do not see each other's facial expressions or hear their tone of voice which effect how we interpret what others are saying.

Some people are just more analytical in nature and but are not trying to sound mean at all. That's just how they're wired. Could he have tried to make his posts sound more compassionate perhaps but I wouldn't call him being rude.[/quote]

Thank you. Really didn't mean to sound cruel......thought this was an innocent example. Sorry to hear it is not.

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Now playing: [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/harry+gregson-williams/track/evacuating+london"]Harry Gregson-Williams - Evacuating London[/url]
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[bonkers]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1919853' date='Jul 14 2009, 03:38 PM']It doesn't quite work that way. No one knows what happens in those final milliseconds before we are gone, or in the conversation with God almighty who is outside of time when we meet him. A millisecond with God is quite enough time to say we are sorry.[/quote]

I don't think a millisecond is quite long enough to repent. In that instantaneous second before you die you're not feeling remorse for your sins, you're overwhelmed by the fear of dying, and all your energies and concentration is focussed on surviving. And even if you could sneak in a quick "srry gd" before you get hit by that bus, I don't think it would be a genuine apology rather said on the basis of getting into heaven. It would probably add to the culpability given that the person who said it knew they were a sinner and chose not to repent beforehand.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1920351' date='Jul 14 2009, 09:05 PM']I don't think a millisecond is quite long enough to repent.[/quote]
God only knows if that is possible.

[bonkers]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1919581' date='Jul 14 2009, 12:36 PM']The point is that you don't know if they got the opportunity to repent or not. And you don't know if people who repent on their deathbed wouldn't have repented later if they had lived longer.

I say everyone gets the opportunity repent before they die. If it happens to be on the deathbed, great. I don't know that I would consider that "lucky."

God doesn't operate on "luck." He's not arbitrary and capricious in who he offers salvation to. All are given the opportunity to repent and avail themselves of His grace. You are responsible for how you respond to that opportunity, whenever it happens to come.[/quote]

But people who might have repented on their deathbed might have also had opportunities to repent beforehand and turned them down. Now that they are dying they have an opportunity to repent and nothing to lose, and everything to gain. Not everyone gets that opportunity with the imminent knowledge of their death pending. If god did not operate on "luck" he should have made the conditions for salvation equal for all.

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1920351' date='Jul 14 2009, 11:05 PM']I don't think a millisecond is quite long enough to repent. In that instantaneous second before you die you're not feeling remorse for your sins, you're overwhelmed by the fear of dying, and all your energies and concentration is focussed on surviving. And even if you could sneak in a quick "srry gd" before you get hit by that bus, I don't think it would be a genuine apology rather said on the basis of getting into heaven. It would probably add to the culpability given that the person who said it knew they were a sinner and chose not to repent beforehand.[/quote]


[quote name='bonkers' post='1920371' date='Jul 14 2009, 11:24 PM']But people who might have repented on their deathbed might have also had opportunities to repent beforehand and turned them down. Now that they are dying they have an opportunity to repent and nothing to lose, and everything to gain. Not everyone gets that opportunity with the imminent knowledge of their death pending. If god did not operate on "luck" he should have made the conditions for salvation equal for all.[/quote]
For an atheist, you know a lot about how God works /tongue-in-cheek

[Angel*Star]

Kitty,

I, too, have doubted why God would do what I think He is doing to me. I have told me husband No God would do this or that. I threaten to leave. Why would He do this to us? But I don't because I really need God most when I question. I am hurting and need someone I can turn to for things that are totally out of my power. When I am most angry with God is usually when I need Him the most.

Give yourself time. Don't stray. Don't pretend to know all the answers. Let Him talk to you in prayer and through others. Let Him comfort you in your agony. He loves you and wants to give you comfort.

You are in my prayers and sacrifices.

Angel*Star

[Marie-Therese]

Kitty, I am heartsick for your loss. Please be assured of my prayers for you and for your comfort and peace during this time.


[quote name='Hassan' post='1919892' date='Jul 14 2009, 03:53 PM']Actually that's James Patrick Caviezel [/quote]

Oh Hassan, you know exactly what he meant. Don't parse pixels.


[quote]meh[/quote]

You find it unbelievable that a person would willingly, and even happily, endure suffering for the betterment of another person? You're a logical guy...surely you can't make this argument in truth. You're not quite THAT cynical, are you?


[quote]"Eli Eli Lama Sabchthani"[/quote]

It's not the words, dear...it's the point of them. Christ's death is fulfillment of scripture. These are the opening words of Psalm 22, the Messianic Psalm. Christ was not lamenting God's departure so much as He was demonstrating who He was in a language every Jew listening would've known by heart. He showed how He fulfilled prophecy.



Hassan, I respect you very much for your logical and learned stance on many issues, even though I find that we generally (respectfully) disagree. However, this seems a reply lacking your usual attempt at some type of objectivity. Do you think that people who can find goodness out of pain and suffering are somehow pathetic in the attempt? I feel a deep bitter cynicism in this post that I don't usually see from you.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Marie-Therese' post='1920434' date='Jul 15 2009, 12:26 AM']Oh Hassan, you know exactly what he meant. Don't parse pixels.[/quote]

lol, point taken




[quote]You find it unbelievable that a person would willingly, and even happily, endure suffering for the betterment of another person? You're a logical guy...surely you can't make this argument in truth. You're not quite THAT cynical, are you?[/quote]

No. I don't deny that.




[quote]It's not the words, dear...it's the point of them. Christ's death is fulfillment of scripture. These are the opening words of Psalm 22, the Messianic Psalm. Christ was not lamenting God's departure so much as He was demonstrating who He was in a language every Jew listening would've known by heart. He showed how He fulfilled prophecy.[/quote]

I know the reference.



[quote]Hassan, I respect you very much for your logical and learned stance on many issues, even though I find that we generally (respectfully) disagree. However, this seems a reply lacking your usual attempt at some type of objectivity. Do you think that people who can find goodness out of pain and suffering are somehow pathetic in the attempt? I feel a deep bitter cynicism in this post that I don't usually see from you.[/quote]

I was annoyed by something during the course of the thread and was being overly argumentative for the sake of being provocative to be honest. You are right that this topic brings out my more cynical side.

[Marie-Therese]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1920454' date='Jul 15 2009, 12:57 AM']I was annoyed by something during the course of the thread and was being overly argumentative for the sake of being provocative to be honest. You are right that this topic brings out my more cynical side.[/quote]

This is why I like you. Disagreement doesn't have to be disagreeable.

Hassan is my friend.

[bonkers]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1920404' date='Jul 14 2009, 10:49 PM']For an atheist, you know a lot about how God works /tongue-in-cheek[/quote]
Yeah I used to be Catholic.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1920371' date='Jul 14 2009, 11:24 PM']But people who might have repented on their deathbed might have also had opportunities to repent beforehand and turned them down. Now that they are dying they have an opportunity to repent and nothing to lose, and everything to gain. Not everyone gets that opportunity with the imminent knowledge of their death pending. If god did not operate on "luck" he should have made the conditions for salvation equal for all.[/quote]
Equality is not the goal.

Not everyone needs imminent death looming in order to be motivated to make peace with God. Some people will be motivated by that, others won't. We are individuals, and God deals with us individually.

Frankly, I don't see the point of arguing hypothetical people's deathbeds. At some point, you are going to have to deal with the call on your own heart and not worry about how God deals with the rest of the people in the world.

[bonkers]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1920501' date='Jul 15 2009, 03:29 AM']At some point, you are going to have to deal with the call on your own heart and not worry about how God deals with the rest of the people in the world.[/quote]

I'm just saying it's unjust that some people, they may be particularly horrible and evil people, get a last chance to repent on their death beds, and there are other people who might be good people who never get that last opportunity. It's unjust and god is supposedly just, that some people can utter the words "sorry" and get a free pass into heaven, while all their victims suffer in hell. How's that just?

[Sojourner]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1920506' date='Jul 15 2009, 04:22 AM']I'm just saying it's unjust that some people, they may be particularly horrible and evil people, get a last chance to repent on their death beds, and there are other people who might be good people who never get that last opportunity. It's unjust and god is supposedly just, that some people can utter the words "sorry" and get a free pass into heaven, while all their victims suffer in hell. How's that just?[/quote]
If this were how God operated, it would be unjust. But there is no indication that this is how God truly operates.

What you've done is create a straw man -- a misrepresentation of God's character and the manner in which he interacts with us. It's easy to understand why you might create such a misrepresentation. It's a lot easier to create something monstrous and dismiss it out of hand than to wrestle with the real claims of Christianity. Until you are ready to face up to the questions of who God really is and what he really does, and honestly weigh the answers in your own mind, you will never find peace.

I know you're a Catholic who has lost faith. I get that. There are lots of reasons that can happen. But the fact you are coming here and arguing with us leads me to believe something in you longs to come home. You aren't completely letting it go. The thing that will serve you best in dealing with that longing is honesty. You'll get nowhere without asking honest questions and honestly weighing the answers. God can handle your questions, and he can handle your disbelief. Just be honest.