heavenseeker Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 [quote name='Kitty' post='1919307' date='Jul 13 2009, 11:57 PM']Prayer consists of desperate words sent up to an ear that either does not exist, or does not listen. Relics are only material pieces of rotting bone. Communion is what it appears to be; bread and wine. When a little boy's death from cancer is drawn out over the course of fourteen months, all the prayer, churchgoing, communion-taking, blessing and annointing in the world won't do you any good. When a little boy's life is taken, amidst relics, prayers, and communion, it only says one thing to me: "God wanted this little boy to die a slow and painful death." After all, "God's will be done". That is not a loving God to me.[/quote] I'm not sure what to say to that. Just like "Wait...what?" I seriously hope that you don't have that bleak of an outlook on things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitty Posted July 14, 2009 Author Share Posted July 14, 2009 [quote name='eagle_eye222001' post='1919402' date='Jul 14 2009, 12:28 AM']Again...what you are getting at is that god would only exist if suffering was totally eradicated? Correct? Also, you are making it as if God could only care if there was no suffering. So basically in your line of reasoning....God could only exist if no suffering existed which would reduce our free will to.....well....it wouldn't be true free will as we could never harm anyone. We would be basically robots in a way.[/quote] I guess I can't explain this in a way that you can understand, but in my head it makes perfect sense. After seeing what I've seen, my life has completely turned around and I think my mind took a huge step back. But if this kind of suffering and death exists because of Satan, then why can't God just kill Satan...if he is all powerful? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heavenseeker Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Kitty' post='1919418' date='Jul 14 2009, 01:56 AM']I guess I can't explain this in a way that you can understand, but in my head it makes perfect sense. After seeing what I've seen, my life has completely turned around and I think my mind took a huge step back. But if this kind of suffering and death exists because of Satan, then why can't God just kill Satan...if he is all powerful?[/quote] If there was no evil there would be no concept of good. God allows evil and suffering so that the good has meaning. God also gives you no hardship that you are no capable of overcoming. the reason for them might be different. Like spiritual growth, strengthening a relationship, building team work, or what ever other reason. I cant say why God allowed what happened to happen because I'm not him. I can pray that it will all make sense to you soon. Edited July 14, 2009 by heavenseeker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iheartjp2 Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 Not trying to wreck the vibe on this thread but....what does discussing philosophical musings on suffering have to do with [i]Kitty's[/i] suffering? Clearly, she's going through a rough time right now. All of our faith has been tested at times, but did a nice little coffee house chat about the [i]concept[/i] of what we were dealing with help us? I'm not saying that this isn't a good discussion but honestly, where's the love? Could one of you guys say, I don't know...encourage her? Kitty, I'm sorry about what you're going through. I didn't want to say much at first because truly, I really didn't know what to say. I haven't experienced the death of someone that I cared about a lot and I can only imagine what it must feel like to walk around with that heaviness. I do know, however, what it's like to feel as if God is distant or that he doesn't care. I've felt at times that God was actually sadistic and that he was just laughing at me. I'd encourage you to seek Him. I know it's hard when you don't think that it'll do any good, but another good healer of wounds is time itself. Brother Adam was right, he really does love you that much. God bless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philothea Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 [quote name='Kitty' post='1919307' date='Jul 13 2009, 11:57 PM']Prayer consists of desperate words sent up to an ear that either does not exist, or does not listen. Relics are only material pieces of rotting bone. Communion is what it appears to be; bread and wine. When a little boy's death from cancer is drawn out over the course of fourteen months, all the prayer, churchgoing, communion-taking, blessing and annointing in the world won't do you any good. When a little boy's life is taken, amidst relics, prayers, and communion, it only says one thing to me: "God wanted this little boy to die a slow and painful death." After all, "God's will be done". That is not a loving God to me.[/quote] That's terrible. I'm so sorry you went through that. Poor little boy. This might speak to you: [url="http://www.reallivepreacher.com/rlparchive/preachersstory"]http://www.reallivepreacher.com/rlparchive/preachersstory[/url] (Contains some profanity.) I'll try to come up with something more coherent after I've slept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varg Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 (edited) [quote name='eagle_eye222001' post='1919317' date='Jul 13 2009, 11:03 PM']Whoa.....one thing at a time. Basically your arguing that since people are allowed to suffer, then there must not be a god since you argue that a "loving" god would not allow people to suffer like this. I argue that if suffering did not exist.....what would life be like? I mean.....if we all lived "fun" lives....with no pain or suffering....then wouldn't life be........empty of something? Life would be pointless as we would just be robotic in that we could only enjoy fun and not experience negativity of any kind. So free will would not exist basically. We believe that God wanted to share his love with us however he wanted it to be free choice from us and not from a bunch of robots. That is a short argument on why pain and suffering exists with a God. I'm sure others can add more. I ask you.....do you believe we have free will? Also, would the absence of pain and suffering would be proof of a god? ---------------- Now playing: [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/linkin+park/track/leave+out+all+the+rest"]Linkin Park - Leave Out All the Rest[/url] via [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/"]FoxyTunes[/url][/quote]She's lost someone very close to her and all you can do is argue about something that she has understandably lost faith in? You're cold. Kitty, I'm so sorry for what happened. Edited July 14, 2009 by Varg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varg Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 (edited) [quote name='eagle_eye222001' post='1919317' date='Jul 13 2009, 11:03 PM']Whoa.....one thing at a time. Basically your arguing that since people are allowed to suffer, then there must not be a god since you argue that a "loving" god would not allow people to suffer like this. I argue that if suffering did not exist.....what would life be like? I mean.....if we all lived "fun" lives....with no pain or suffering....then wouldn't life be........empty of something? Life would be pointless as we would just be robotic in that we could only enjoy fun and not experience negativity of any kind. So free will would not exist basically. We believe that God wanted to share his love with us however he wanted it to be free choice from us and not from a bunch of robots. That is a short argument on why pain and suffering exists with a God. I'm sure others can add more. I ask you.....do you believe we have free will? Also, would the absence of pain and suffering would be proof of a god? ---------------- Now playing: [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/linkin+park/track/leave+out+all+the+rest"]Linkin Park - Leave Out All the Rest[/url] via [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/"]FoxyTunes[/url][/quote]She's lost someone very close to her and all you can do is argue about something that she has understandably lost faith in? You're cold. Kitty, I'm so sorry for what happened. Edited July 14, 2009 by Varg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sirklawd Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 [quote name='Kitty' post='1919307' date='Jul 13 2009, 11:57 PM']Prayer consists of desperate words sent up to an ear that either does not exist, or does not listen. Relics are only material pieces of rotting bone. Communion is what it appears to be; bread and wine. When a little boy's death from cancer is drawn out over the course of fourteen months, all the prayer, churchgoing, communion-taking, blessing and annointing in the world won't do you any good. When a little boy's life is taken, amidst relics, prayers, and communion, it only says one thing to me: "God wanted this little boy to die a slow and painful death." After all, "God's will be done". That is not a loving God to me.[/quote] its not that because suffering exists, God doesnt. It's that suffering exists, so lets hope theres a God to give it meaning. What I mean is, whether or not God exists suffering is always going to be with us. If there isnt a God though, there can be no point to it. There can be no hope. We live and we die and in the middle, no matter what, is pain. But if there is a God, there is hope and there is love and there is an end to the suffering. We believe that not only does our God provide this hope and this love, but he is also intimately familiar with our suffering. So much so that he knows the way through it because he's been there. He's been through the worst suffering and death and back again, and he went through all that just so he could show us the way and walk the path with us - because he loves us, and wouldn't dare leave us in a hopeless world filled with pain and without love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 Can I say that I understand the actions of God? No, not at all, since if He was small enough for me to understand, He would not be big enough to be my God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 [quote name='heavenseeker' post='1919426' date='Jul 14 2009, 02:16 AM']If there was no evil there would be no concept of good. God allows evil and suffering so that the good has meaning. God also gives you no hardship that you are no capable of overcoming. the reason for them might be different. Like spiritual growth, strengthening a relationship, building team work, or what ever other reason.[/quote] Not a Catholic position. God permits evil because it is a result of the free choice that caused the Fall. To say good without evil does not have meaning is to argue that life befoe the Fall had no meaning. Further, it argues that God has no meaning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 [quote name='Kitty' post='1919307' date='Jul 14 2009, 12:57 AM']Prayer consists of desperate words sent up to an ear that either does not exist, or does not listen. Relics are only material pieces of rotting bone. Communion is what it appears to be; bread and wine. When a little boy's death from cancer is drawn out over the course of fourteen months, all the prayer, churchgoing, communion-taking, blessing and annointing in the world won't do you any good. When a little boy's life is taken, amidst relics, prayers, and communion, it only says one thing to me: "God wanted this little boy to die a slow and painful death." After all, "God's will be done". That is not a loving God to me.[/quote] Just because we don't get the answer we so desperately desire doesn't mean God isn't listening. I am sorry for the loss of the little one. I'm glad you got to say goodbye and he was loved and cared for until the end. I don't know how prayer works, I don't think any of us does, I do think its important that we ask for the people and things important to us. My best friend's daughter Mary Rose died slowly of a neuroblastomic brain tumor. She was 6. All the prayers in the world couldn't save her without an outright miracle and science hasn't advanced that far. God didn't cause the brain tumor, something in her genes/environment simply made it grow, and science hadn't advanced enough to cure it. Either of her parents or family would have traded places with her in a heartbeat, but we didn't get that option. Unless they drop dead or have a tragic accident nobody gets out of this world without pain or suffering. We really all are going to die, there is no get out free card, although many people act as though they will live forever and this is a dress rehearsal. Life is infinitely precious, and can be tragically short, and you sometimes won't know until that last moment that it really is the end, so everyday life and love are important. The only thing we can do in the face of universal suffering to tell the people we love everyday how much we do love them and value them are in our lives. Again I am very sorry for the loss of the little one, and may you eventually find the comfort and peace you seek. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonkers Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 (edited) You know what I think su.cks? All those horrible people that get the opportunity to repent on their deathbed, and get to go to heaven and all the nice people who get his by cars and die in plane crashes who never get an opportunity to repent and go to hell. Edited July 14, 2009 by bonkers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojourner Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 [quote name='bonkers' post='1919486' date='Jul 14 2009, 10:54 AM']You know what I think su.cks? All those horrible people that get the opportunity to repent on their deathbed, and get to go to heaven and all the nice people who get his by cars and die in plane crashes who never get an opportunity to repent and go to hell.[/quote] Who says they don't get an opportunity to repent? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonkers Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 [quote name='Terra Firma' post='1919491' date='Jul 14 2009, 09:58 AM']Who says they don't get an opportunity to repent?[/quote] The morgue people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 [quote name='bonkers' post='1919486' date='Jul 14 2009, 09:54 AM']You know what I think su.cks? All those horrible people that get the opportunity to repent on their deathbed, and get to go to heaven and all the nice people who get his by cars and die in plane crashes who never get an opportunity to repent and go to hell.[/quote] We simply can not know the last thought that goes on in a person's mind before death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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