Pope Vs. Bishop

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1916601' date='Jul 10 2009, 08:08 AM']Everybody here thinks the answer is obvious... and on page 4 you all have reached no consensus.[/quote]
That's what happens when the life of faith is reduced to juridical categories.

Edited July 10, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Vasilius Konstantinos]

This is a pretty silly argument. What does the Liturgy say to do, as that should be the final answer to the whole issue in the first place? What is the particular practice of the Church itself, in your jurisdiction?

And then you wonder why we see the West as flawed, because such things that make divisions when its based on semantics.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1916627' date='Jul 10 2009, 10:39 AM']If it's not related to specific doctrines or beliefs, then yes one could. This isn't an ex cathedra statement. The way the system of authority works is that in matters of specific practices, the bishops have individual say over their diocese, within reason. Unless the Pope specifically says "there will be no deviation from this under pang of excommunication," which was not stipulated in this hypothetical situation, then the faithful can safely obey either the pope or their bishop.[/quote]

The Pope's power of jurisdiction is not limited to things pertaining to faith and morals. The Roman Pontiff has full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the universal Church in things pertaining to discipline and government of the Church. He has ordinary and immediate power over every particular Church and over every one of the faithful.

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1916627' date='Jul 10 2009, 10:39 AM']If you want to throw a hissyfit about obeying the pope and his authority in matters of truly important things like beliefs and not about standing or kneeling during the mass, then start another thread. This thread is talking [b]only[/b] about practices and non-essential decisions.[/quote]



I made this thread, so I think that I should know what is to be discussed in it.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1918637' date='Jul 13 2009, 07:32 AM']The Pope's power of jurisdiction is not limited to things pertaining to faith and morals. The Roman Pontiff has full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the universal Church in things pertaining to discipline and government of the Church. He has ordinary and immediate power over every particular Church and over every one of the faithful.





I made this thread, so I think that I should know what is to be discussed in it.[/quote]
Then the flaw in the example is that he wouldn't make a broad decision like that without working it out with the bishops. And if he's going to enforce something like that, he would be directly removing or disciplining bishops who disobey him. In other words, there wouldn't be a bishop disobeying the directive like that. And if they remain installed or undisciplined, then I would feel comfortable obeying them in a matter that's not directly sinful.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1918637' date='Jul 13 2009, 07:32 AM']The Pope's power of jurisdiction is not limited to things pertaining to faith and morals. The Roman Pontiff has full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the universal Church in things pertaining to discipline and government of the Church. He has ordinary and immediate power over every particular Church and over every one of the faithful.[/quote]
That the 19th century [i]theoria[/i] of the Latin Church, and as such it has no application outside of that particular [i]sui juris[/i] Church. Ultimately I agree with Ratzinger who said: "Rome must not require more from the East with respect to the doctrine of primacy than had been [b]formulated[/b] and was [b]lived[/b] in the [i]first millennium[/i]."

[Vasilius Konstantinos]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1918637' date='Jul 13 2009, 09:32 AM']The Pope's power of jurisdiction is not limited to things pertaining to faith and morals. The Roman Pontiff has full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the universal Church in things pertaining to discipline and government of the Church. He has ordinary and immediate power over every particular Church and over every one of the faithful.[/quote]
And this is why there is Schism, as this was never the case before it.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Vasilius Konstantinos' post='1918824' date='Jul 13 2009, 01:08 PM']And this is why there is Schism[/quote]

It is no different than the Monophysite schism. The Eastern Orthodox Churches reject what the Holy Catholic Church has always taught.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1918896' date='Jul 13 2009, 01:27 PM']It is no different than the Monophysite schism. The Eastern Orthodox Churches reject what the Holy Catholic Church has always taught.[/quote]
From your perspective that is true, but an Eastern Orthodox Christian will see it differently.

Lucky for all of us . . . the pope and the various Eastern Orthodox patriarchs are willing to dialogue on these issues.

[Vasilius Konstantinos]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1918896' date='Jul 13 2009, 03:27 PM']It is no different than the Monophysite schism. The Eastern Orthodox Churches reject what the Holy Catholic Church has always taught.[/quote]

When there is union Resurrexi, it will be an awesome sight to see the West in full union and able to breathe a whole breath. And it will be a beautiful sight to see the Orthodox Church finally being able to sit easier knowing that some group from Rome is not trying to cause trouble for their jurisdiction without fear of some Papal takeover, which is honestly a great fear among many Orthodox clergy.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Vasilius Konstantinos' post='1921306' date='Jul 15 2009, 11:18 PM']When there is union Resurrexi, it will be an awesome sight to see the West in full union and able to breathe a whole breath. And it will be a beautiful sight to see the Orthodox Church finally being able to sit easier knowing that some group from Rome is not trying to cause trouble for their jurisdiction without fear of some Papal takeover, which is honestly a great fear among many Orthodox clergy.[/quote]
I would truly be an awesome thing to behold.