LouisvilleFan Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 Since disciplines vary by region, I obey my local bishop. Here in the Arch. of Louisville, we are instructed to stand after the priest receives Communion and throughout the Distribution, then after the last person has received, we have the option of kneeling or sitting for private prayer. Most parishes are doing this, though the more traditional ones kneel throughout Communion, so I tend to go with the crowd, preferring to stand if there are enough people standing not to be awkward or draw attention to myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1914906' date='Jul 8 2009, 07:32 PM']We do not have to obey a Bishop who ask us to do something counter to truth. It is as simple as that. To obey a order that we know is counter to truth would be a great injustice.[/quote] Kneeling v.s. standing at consecration is not a matter of "truth." Both gestures are equally respectful depending on the culture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 Who is the arbiter of this Truth? Me, a common pew warmer, or my bishop who must have a doctorate in order to even hold his position, and has been put in authority over me by the Pope. If the Pope chooses to leave a bishop in his seat, he is telling us to obey our bishop by this action. If the Pope were to send out a public letter, addressed to the members of my diocese that we were to do something that our bishop has told us not to (or visa versa), then I would do as the Pope asked. I can't imagine him doing that without removing the bishop, but I agree that there might be some strange situation that came up requiring him to do so, such as an underground church like in China. The point is, it is up to the Pope to make this decision, not me. I am not worthy to interpret his wishes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kafka Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 (edited) [quote name='fidei defensor' post='1914912' date='Jul 8 2009, 09:42 PM']Kneeling v.s. standing at consecration is not a matter of "truth." Both gestures are equally respectful depending on the culture.[/quote] Bravo! Kneeling and genuflecting is not doctrinal, therefore it does not fall under the spiritual authority (teaching of faith and morals) of the Magisterium, rather it falls under the temporal authority of the Church. The bishops do exercise a degree of temporal authority indepedent of the pope over their diocese, so it would be appropriate to obey the Bishop in this circumstance since it is not doctrinal, it is not a matter of faith and morals. It is a reformable rule. nice job fidei! Edited July 9, 2009 by kafka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 If the Pope clearly teaches X and my Bishop clearly disobeys X or pays no attention to X. Then I must choose which I must obey, what I know the Pope teaches or what my bishop teaches. If I obey my bishop I am disobedient to the Pope. If I obey the Pope I will 'disobedient' to my bishop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 [quote name='fidei defensor' post='1914912' date='Jul 8 2009, 09:42 PM']Kneeling v.s. standing at consecration is not a matter of "truth." Both gestures are equally respectful depending on the culture.[/quote] If the Pope forbid standing for Latin Catholics and clearly forbid it, we should obey it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted July 9, 2009 Author Share Posted July 9, 2009 [quote name='kafka' post='1914924' date='Jul 8 2009, 09:00 PM']Bravo! Kneeling and genuflecting is not doctrinal, therefore it does not fall under the spiritual authority (teaching of faith and morals) of the Magisterium, rather it falls under the temporal authority of the Magisterium. The bishops do have a degree of temporal authority indepedent of the pope over their diocese, so it would be appropriate to obey the Bishop in this circumstance since it is not doctrinal, it is not a matter of faith and morals. nice job fidei![/quote] A directive of the pope to kneel during the consecration wouldn't be considered the use of his Magisterium at all. The Magisterium of the Pope is his [i]teaching [/i]authority. The Pope would be using his disciplinary authority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted July 9, 2009 Author Share Posted July 9, 2009 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1914927' date='Jul 8 2009, 09:02 PM']If the Pope forbid standing for Latin Catholics and clearly forbid it, we should obey it.[/quote] iawtc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kafka Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1914929' date='Jul 8 2009, 10:05 PM']A directive of the pope to kneel during the consecration wouldn't be considered the use of his Magisterium at all. The Magisterium of the Pope is his [i]teaching [/i]authority. The Pope would be using his disciplinary authority.[/quote] the temporal authority of the Church (i typoed using 'of the Magisterium') my argument was still correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kafka Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 (edited) [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1914927' date='Jul 8 2009, 10:02 PM']If the Pope forbid standing for Latin Catholics and clearly forbid it, we should obey it.[/quote] fidei was actually expressing a good and valid grasp of the question. Kneeling and standing during the consecration is a practice, not a truth of faith or morals which falls under the Magisterium. So it falls under the temporal authority of the Church which involves decisions, not teachings, and rules, not moral law. The temporal authority of the Church gives the Bishops and the Pope the authority to rule over the Church, to make decisions and rules concerning practical matters, and to govern the people of God. The Bishops do exercise a degree of temporal authority independent of the Pope so theoretically in this matter for a good and just reason such as 'culture' the bishop could make a reasonable decision for the faithful to stand, and it would be appropriate to obey the Bishop. Edited July 9, 2009 by kafka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 [quote name='kafka' post='1914945' date='Jul 8 2009, 09:22 PM']fidei was actually expressing a good and valid grasp of the question. Kneeling and standing during the consecration is a practice, not a truth of faith or morals which falls under the Magisterium. So it falls under the temporal authority of the Church which involves decisions, not teachings, and rules, not moral law. The temporal authority of the Church gives the Bishops and the Pope the authority to rule over the Church, to make decisions and rules concerning practical matters, and to govern the people of God. The Bishops do exercise a degree of temporal authority independent of the Pope so theoretically in this matter for a good and just reason such as 'culture' the bishop could make a reasonable decision for the faithful to stand, and it would be appropriate to obey the Bishop.[/quote] Yes yes yes, but if the Pope forbid Latin Catholic to stand we should obey it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 [quote name='kafka' post='1914945' date='Jul 8 2009, 08:22 PM']fidei was actually expressing a good and valid grasp of the question.[/quote] I occasionally do that, when I get bored of making trouble for no good reason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kafka Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1914957' date='Jul 8 2009, 10:32 PM']Yes yes yes, but if the Pope forbid Latin Catholic to stand we should obey it.[/quote] You are over-simplifying. This is a practice and it is non-essential. It is also a bad hypothetical since the Pope would never issue a motu proprio like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kafka Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 [quote name='fidei defensor' post='1914959' date='Jul 8 2009, 10:35 PM']I occasionally do that, when I get bored of making trouble for no good reason [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted July 9, 2009 Author Share Posted July 9, 2009 (edited) [quote name='kafka' post='1914934' date='Jul 8 2009, 09:11 PM']the temporal authority of the Church (i typoed using 'of the Magisterium') my argument was still correct.[/quote] Whether or not your argument is correct, your terms are incorrect again. In Unam sanctam, Pope Boniface teaches: "And we are taught by the texts of the Gospels that in this power of his are two swords, namely spiritual and temporal. . . . Therefore, each is in the power of the Church, that is, a spiritual and a material sword. But the latter, indeed, must be exercised for the Church, the former by the Church. The former by the hand of the priest, the latter by the hand of kings and soldiers, but at the will and sufferance of the priest. For it is necessary that a sword be under a sword and that temporal authority be subject to spiritual power" (Pope Boniface VIII, [i]Unam sanctam[/i]: Denzinger-Schonmetzer 873) The term "temporal authority" thus refers to the authority exercised by Catholic civil rulers and their armies. Edited July 9, 2009 by Resurrexi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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