KnightofChrist Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1914663' date='Jul 8 2009, 05:35 PM']In my hypothetical situation the motu proprio [i]De genuflectibus [/i]has superseded the norms for kneeling laid down in the [i]GIRM[/i].[/quote] In that case the answer is very clear. The Pope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 My question is how do you follow the Pope by being disobedient to the man the Pope has put in authority over you? If the Pope feels it is important enough of an issue for us to be disobedient to our bishops, then wouldn't he just replace our bishop? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted July 9, 2009 Author Share Posted July 9, 2009 [quote name='CatherineM' post='1914845' date='Jul 8 2009, 07:35 PM']My question is how do you follow the Pope by being disobedient to the man the Pope has put in authority over you? If the Pope feels it is important enough of an issue for us to be disobedient to our bishops, then wouldn't he just replace our bishop?[/quote] How does one know if the Pope has yet been informed of the issue? He is not able to keep track of everything that every bishop says. That is why the faithful should write to the CDW. Also, the fact is that the Pope, though he does indeed have the authority to depose bishops, cannot always easily do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 Putting it into military terms, if you hear that the General wants you to take a hill, and your Captain says to stay put, who do you obey? You've been given a direct order from the Captain, not from the General. If the Captain is not following orders, it is up to the General to deal with the situation, not me the Private. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted July 9, 2009 Author Share Posted July 9, 2009 [quote name='CatherineM' post='1914848' date='Jul 8 2009, 07:38 PM']Putting it into military terms, if you hear that the General wants you to take a hill, and your Captain says to stay put, who do you obey? You've been given a direct order from the Captain, not from the General. If the Captain is not following orders, it is up to the General to deal with the situation, not me the Private.[/quote] The Church is not the United States military. Since the Pope has immediate power which he can always exercise over the whole Church, we much obey him rather than our bishops if our bishops give an order in opposition to one which the Pope gives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1914853' date='Jul 8 2009, 07:45 PM']The Church is not the United States military. Since the Pope has immediate power which he can always exercise over the whole Church, we much obey him rather than our bishops if our bishops give an order in opposition to one which the Pope gives.[/quote] But how do you expect to do that? If we obey the Pope's wishes (as we interpret them) by disobeying our bishop (who may have interpreted the issue differently than we have) who was put in charge by the Pope, then we are disobeying the Pope's wishes that we obey our bishop, unless and until he is replaced by the Pope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted July 9, 2009 Author Share Posted July 9, 2009 I would argue that the Pope's desire the we obey our bishop is conditional. We only need to obey our bishop when he does not give a command that is sinful or contrary to a command given by the Pope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1914863' date='Jul 8 2009, 07:59 PM']I would argue that the Pope's desire the we obey our bishop is conditional. We only need to obey our bishop when he does not give a command that is sinful or contrary to a command given by the Pope.[/quote] And who exactly are you to make a judgment that your bishop is being disobedient? That judgment is up to the Pope and Magisterium alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted July 9, 2009 Author Share Posted July 9, 2009 (edited) [quote name='CatherineM' post='1914865' date='Jul 8 2009, 08:01 PM']And who exactly are you to make a judgment that your bishop is being disobedient? That judgment is up to the Pope and Magisterium alone.[/quote] It is often clear that a bishop is disobeying the Pope. St. Maximus the Confessor, a layman, defied the Patriarch of Constantinople, who professed the Monothelite heresy. The Magisterium is the [i]teaching [/i]authority of the Church. We are talking about a [i]disciplinary issue[/i]. Edited July 9, 2009 by Resurrexi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 [quote name='CatherineM' post='1914845' date='Jul 8 2009, 07:35 PM']My question is how do you follow the Pope by being disobedient to the man the Pope has put in authority over you? If the Pope feels it is important enough of an issue for us to be disobedient to our bishops, then wouldn't he just replace our bishop?[/quote] I would not be disobedient, the Bishop would be. Recently a German bishop rejected the doctrine that Christ' death on the cross gave is our salvation. The bishop has not repented, or retracted his words and the pope has not asked him to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1914870' date='Jul 8 2009, 08:05 PM']It is often clear that a bishop is disobeying the Pope.[/quote] If it is clear to an American teenager, why would you think that it wasn't clear enough to the Pope? If it is clear to the Pope, it is up to the Pope to deal with the bishop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted July 9, 2009 Author Share Posted July 9, 2009 (edited) There are many examples, past and current, of the Pope not correcting errant and disobedient bishops. There are often situations in which it takes a long time for the Pope to hear that there even is a problem. Sometimes he (or curial officials) do correct the bishop, but the bishop does not listen. Even then, deposing a bishop is easier said than done. Edited July 9, 2009 by Resurrexi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1914879' date='Jul 8 2009, 08:15 PM']There are many examples, past and current, of the Pope not correcting errant and disobedient bishops. There are often situations where it takes a long time for the Pope to hear that there even is a problem. Sometimes he (or curial officials) do correct the bishop, but the bishop does not listen. Even then, deposing a bishop is easier said than done.[/quote] Again, it is not up to you to decide if a bishop is being disobedient. We are not privy to even a smidgen of the information a bishop receives from the Vatican, or the communication he has with them. If the Pope is okay with how a bishop is running things, who are you to say the Pope is wrong in leaving the bishop in his position? We aren't in the middle ages. The Pope knows when there is a problem, and he is in the best position to deal with the situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted July 9, 2009 Author Share Posted July 9, 2009 (edited) Have you ever considered the possibility that, if the Pope does know what is going on with the disobedient bishop (which he very well might not since he is a busy man and delegates many things to the Roman congregations), the Pope might decide that allowing the bishop to keep his office (even if that means that the bishop will disobey) would be more prudent than deposing him? Edited July 9, 2009 by Resurrexi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 We do not have to obey a Bishop who ask us to do something counter to truth. It is as simple as that. To obey a order that we know is counter to truth would be a great injustice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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