Pope Vs. Bishop

[Resurrexi]

[Lil Red]

+J.M.J.+
an example please?

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Lil Red' post='1914602' date='Jul 8 2009, 05:14 PM']+J.M.J.+
an example please?[/quote]

[b][u]The following is a hypothetical situation[/u][/b]:

The Pope issues the motu proprio [i]De genuflectibus[/i] saying that all who attend Mass celebrated in the Roman Rite are to kneel during the Consecration if they are physically able.

The local bishop, in defiance of [i]De genuflectibus[/i], issues the document [i]Why I think we should remain standing[/i], saying that all who attend the Mass of the Roman Rite in his diocese are to remain standing during the Consecration.


Would you kneel or remain standing?

Edited July 8, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Lil Red]

+J.M.J.+
remain standing. the GIRM allows for the bishop to change the position if he so chooses.

[Resurrexi]

I said that it was a hypothetical situation. The edict was not the GIRM in the hypothetical situation.

Edited July 8, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Nihil Obstat]

Ooh, I cannot wait for Apotheoun to post!!

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1914632' date='Jul 8 2009, 06:25 PM']I said that it was a hypothetical situation. The edict was not the GIRM in the hypothetical situation.[/quote]

So in your hypothetical situation, the GIRM says nothing about whether to kneel or sit during the consecration and our only information on what to do came from the local bishop and pope?

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[Resurrexi]

[quote name='eagle_eye222001' post='1914648' date='Jul 8 2009, 05:30 PM']So in your hypothetical situation, the GIRM says nothing about whether to kneel or sit during the consecration and our only information on what to do came from the local bishop and pope?

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In my hypothetical situation the motu proprio [i]De genuflectibus [/i]has superseded the norms for kneeling laid down in the [i]GIRM[/i].

[heavenseeker]

Pope because he has authority over all the bishops

[VeniteAdoremus]

I can't answer, because it depends too strongly on the situation.

[CatherineM]

It is up to my bishop to interpret properly edicts from the Pope for me. If he doesn't do so, then the Pope should punish or remove him. If the Pope does not remove the bishop, then we should be confident that the Pope is okay with our bishop's interpretation.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1914677' date='Jul 8 2009, 05:40 PM']It is up to my bishop to interpret properly edicts from the Pope for me. If he doesn't do so, then the Pope should punish or remove him. If the Pope does not remove the bishop, then we should be confident that the Pope is okay with our bishop's interpretation.[/quote]

Pope Eugine IV declared the following:

"We likewise define that the holy Apostolic See, and the Roman Pontiff, hold the primacy throughout the entire world; and that the Roman Pontiff himself is the successor of blessed Peter, the chief of the Apostles, and the true vicar of Christ, and that he is the head of the entire Church, and the father and teacher of all Christians; and that full power was given to him in blessed Peter by our Lord Jesus Christ, to feed, rule, and govern the universal Church; just as is contained in the acts of the ecumenical Councils and in the sacred canons." (Pope Eugine IV, [i]Laetentur coeli[/i]: Denzinger-Schonmetzer 1307)

Yet the same Pope did not depose the conciliarist bishops who claimed that an ecumenical council had authority over the Pope though they continued to teach that erroneous doctrine.

[CatherineM]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1914718' date='Jul 8 2009, 06:01 PM']Pope Eugine IV declared the following:

"We likewise define that the holy Apostolic See, and the Roman Pontiff, hold the primacy throughout the entire world; and that the Roman Pontiff himself is the successor of blessed Peter, the chief of the Apostles, and the true vicar of Christ, and that he is the head of the entire Church, and the father and teacher of all Christians; and that full power was given to him in blessed Peter by our Lord Jesus Christ, to feed, rule, and govern the universal Church; just as is contained in the acts of the ecumenical Councils and in the sacred canons." (Pope Eugine IV, [i]Laetentur coeli[/i]: Denzinger-Schonmetzer 1307)

Yet the same Pope did not depose the conciliarist bishops who claimed that an ecumenical council had authority over the Pope though they continued to teach that erroneous doctrine.[/quote]

That may be, but what are you suggesting regular pew warmers with zero theological training to do? Are we to start our own parish under the Pope but not the Bishop that the Pope installed over us?

[BG45]

I'm not entirely sure what I'd do [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=95919&st=140&start=140"]in your hypothetical situation[/url]. It's a Catch-22 or Kobiyashi Maru scenario as Catherine pointed out. What is one to do, start one's own parish under the Pope but not the Bishop that the Pope installed, due to the Bishop disobeying the Pope, and therefore be disobeying both by creating a parish loyal to the Pope by betraying the man the Pope has installed?

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1914733' date='Jul 8 2009, 06:11 PM']That may be, but what are you suggesting regular pew warmers with zero theological training to do? Are we to start our own parish under the Pope but not the Bishop that the Pope installed over us?[/quote]

The parishioners should continue to do what the Pope says, and they should also write to the Congregation for Divine Worship.