vianney Posted August 11, 2003 Share Posted August 11, 2003 Does anyone know of any documents in the Catholic church supporting birth control to be used for medical purposes..IF SO GIVE THEM TO ME PLEASE!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasJis Posted August 12, 2003 Share Posted August 12, 2003 2297 Kidnapping and hostage taking bring on a reign of terror; by means of threats they subject their victims to intolerable pressures. They are morally wrong. Terrorism threatens, wounds, and kills indiscriminately; it is gravely against justice and charity. Torture which uses physical or moral violence to extract confessions, punish the guilty, frighten opponents, or satisfy hatred is contrary to respect for the person and for human dignity. Except when performed for strictly therapeutic medical reasons, directly intended amputations, mutilations, and sterilizations performed on innocent persons are against the moral law.91 The above is from the Catechism. Check out the footnote link 91 to church documents. Taken in context, it would have to be for therapeutic reasons and could not be a method that's abortificant and be as natural as possible. The gravity of the medical reasons would have to be considered, etc. Read this section and the section about marriage and the gift of children as well. It's not a short answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrysologus Posted August 12, 2003 Share Posted August 12, 2003 So is it okay to masturbate to have your sperm checked for fertility? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperdulia again Posted August 12, 2003 Share Posted August 12, 2003 no..you're odd....masturbation is still wrong causa da lust factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasJis Posted August 12, 2003 Share Posted August 12, 2003 So is it okay to masturbate to have your sperm checked for fertility? I would think it's okay if it's within the context of marriage, it seems a legitimate 'medical' proceedure and purpose. If it's before marriage, I would think it best to discuss it with a priest beforehand. Why would it be an issue before marriage? The idea is to be married and put faith in the providence of God. Children are a gift from, not a just duty or a right. The adoptive parents to my God-son tried for almost 8 years to have a child. On the weekend of his baptism, they got pregnant. They totally trusted God and were open to Him always. They did not get pregnant until after they adopted and acted as parents to bring their adopted son into the Church where he became the adopted son of God. No medical reasons were found why they couldn't conceive, but they never went to extremes to find out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IXpenguin21 Posted August 12, 2003 Share Posted August 12, 2003 (edited) people, people, people? where are our heads here??? are we not Catholic? are we not striving to do all we can to uphold moral value and decency? allow our apostolic model to guide us, as Christ would guide us, His bride: 1 September 1979 Under the heading "Contraception," the Pope said at Limerick, Ireland in Sept. 1979: "And here, I want to say a very special word to all Irish parents. Marriage must include openness to the gift of children. Generous openness to accept children from God as the gift to their love is the mark of the Christian couple. Respect the God-given cycle of life, for this respect is part of our respect for God himself, who created male and female, who created them in his own image, reflecting his own life-giving love in the patterns of their sexual being." "OPENNESS TO THE GIFT" means "I will not do anything to prevent what God intends to happen" how can you be open with a condom on? our Holy Father goes further into his statement when he says "Generous openness to accept children from God as the gift to their love is the mark of the Christian couple." The very mark, the final product, the one foolproof way to show the nuptial bond and love between the two married people now one flesh, is the ONE FLESH seen through their children, and they in turn must be open to that gift, that example, that manifestation of their love at all times! Finally, I would like to pull apart the remainder of this quotation: "Respect the God-given cycle of life, for this respect is part of our respect for God himself, who created male and female, who created them in his own image, reflecting his own life-giving love in the patterns of their sexual being." woah, what? our pope urges married couples to RESPECT the gifts God has given them; their bodies as MAN and WOMAN in HIS image! do you think that God would have a means to somehow withhold even an ounce of His love for us? Certainly not! If our Father would go so far as to give His life for us, we can assume that he would never hold back. the greatest thing a man can do is lay down one's life for his friends, it says in scripture! and through that gift, we see the life of the church!!! if God is such a way, and we are created in His image, then we can only conclude that we are to be as total and fruitful in our rolls as male and female, bringing forth life, not preventing it at any time, as there was never a time Christ stood up and said he wasn't going to take any more beatings because He had a medical reason not to, so there goes the medical reason argument. "November 1979 In speaking to a French group Nov. 3, 1979, the Holy Father emphasized that conjugal love involved a totality of self-giving. He said: "It aims at a deeply personal unity, the unity that, beyond union in one flesh, leads to forming one heart and one soul; it demands indissolubility in faithfulness in definitive mutual giving; and it is open to fertility (cf. HV 9)."" here we see our pontiff stress the importance of unity so deep, that it binds two people together and brings them together to form one flesh as husband and wife. he says that not only is flesh, something seen from the surface, but their entire hearts and souls become one as well! this bond, this union is as close of a mirror image you can get of the Trinity! Through the faithful, fruitful, free, and total love of God the Father for His Son, Jesus Christ, and through Their creative spirit and openness to new life, The Holy Spirit is manifested through Them to form the Trinity. now, if husband and wife are suppose to mirror that image, how can they do all that they can NOT to conceive a child? if their purpose through their love and union in one flesh, heart, and soul is to create like God the Father and Son, how can they stop that and still be like God? November 1981 In the Apostolic Exhortation Familiaris consortio, on the role of the family in the modern world, Pope John Paul II taught: "When couples, by means of recourse to contraception, separate these two meanings that God the Creator has inscribed in the being of man and woman and in the dynamism of their sexual communion, they act as 'arbiters' of the Divine plan and they 'manipulate' and degrade human sexuality - and with it themselves and their married partner - by altering its value of 'total' self-giving. Thus the innate language that expresses the total reciprocal self-giving of husband and wife is overlaid, through contraception, by an objectively contradictory language, namely, that of not giving oneself totally to the other. This leads not only to a positive refusal to be open to life but also to a falsification of the inner truth of conjugal love, which is called upon to give itself in personal totality" I love my pope. here he says that our rolls I life are inscribed in our very being! its not hard to find the meaning of life people... it's to LOVE!! men, your body is designed to give. wanna argue? look at yourself in the shower. it's that simple. women, you are suppose to receive... again... the shower test holds true. anything done to 'manipulate' this will "degrade human sexuality". how can a man give with a condom on? how can a woman receive when she's on the pill? these thing do NOT conform with our human nature given to us and created for us by God the Father!! How is masturbating giving, men? our God created the gift of sex for a purpose! the love shared through one flesh, bound through the sexual embrace of matrimony will show you, through the open acceptance of children, everything that we as human beings can possibly understand about the heavenly existence of the Trinity. deferring from that, is nothing other than abomination to mankind. "Thus the innate language that expresses the total reciprocal self-giving of husband and wife is overlaid, through contraception, by an objectively contradictory language, namely, that of not giving oneself totally to the other." that basically says that contraception makes true love impossible. please, I myself urge you to ask people about what the pope has written on sex and marriage. 3000 pages of church documents have been written on sex... 2000 have been written by pope john Paul II in response to the sexual revolution of the late 60's. these pages were compiled of papal audiences held through out the early 70's and are now known as the "Theology of The Body''. The answers to the questions are out there. also, pick up Christopher West's "Good News About Sex and Marriage". that book breaks down the pope's TOTB into normal words. it's an amesome recourse. PAX ps- my recourses http://www.catholicsagainstcontraception.c...i_1978_1996.htm Edited August 12, 2003 by IXpenguin21 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jessinoelw Posted August 12, 2003 Share Posted August 12, 2003 I don't know of any Church documents, but they discuss it often on the EWTN.com forums. To the others: No, masturbation is not allowed to test fertility. The sperm are collected through the normal marital act using a perforated condom (condom with holes in it so that sperm can still go to their destination). --Jessica Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasJis Posted August 12, 2003 Share Posted August 12, 2003 Thanks jessinoelw. That sounds correct. Note that I posted with "I think" and "it seems". It was my considered opinion, but I really didn't know. IXpenguin21, I think we are trying to stay within the Church's teachings. If sex was only for procreateion (yes, procreation is it's main, most important, and fundamental reason for being created by God), then every sex act must be for the purpose of conceptoin, which means to be more than "open to new life". With that concpet, NFP is intrinsiclly immoral. There are legitimate medical reasons why conception should not occur within a valid marriage. If the parents cannot take care of a child is one. There are medical reasons why a women should not get pregnant because of dangers to the mother and child. I think endopic (sp?) pregnancy where the fertilized egg implants itself in the fallopian tube is one. The chances of natural abortion are high and it is also very dangerous for the mother. There also has to be some legitimate reasons for the sterilization spoken of in the Catechism. I'm not real knowledagele at deciphering the footnotes so maybe you can help so we can read the document foot not 91 refers to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IXpenguin21 Posted August 12, 2003 Share Posted August 12, 2003 alright. i don't understand why the pope's statments are invalad here. "Evidently, contraception, insistently propagated today, constrasts with these christian ideals and these moral norms of which the Church is teacher." taken from http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congrega...ucation_en.html further saying: "This fact renders still more urgent the necessity of transmitting to the young at an appropriate age the teaching of the Church on artificial means of contraception, and the reasons for such teaching, so that the young may be prepared for responsible marriage, full of love and open to life." ...basic enough to say that NFP is immoral means it's not understood... if the pope aproves of it, let him be your guide. NFP always allows for the openness of life. never is there a point where the man or woman withholds who they are body, heart, and soul. I ask you why do we have a gift like sex? if it was souly to create, wouldn't you think God would make a better way than sex? why don't humans mioticaly devide? it's faster and you get less desiese because the same DNA is used and reused. ...because sex holds more of a purpose in marriage that souly to create. it's an obvious outward sign of love through an intense physical expression. if you want to debate that, be my guest... i'm just telling it how i see it. NFP allows a husband and wife to express their love and deepen their passion for each other reguarly! what? sex with your spouse reguarly? yes!! couples using NFP are not cheeting or playing God in anyway. do you see that sex with a contraception would be like a crucifixion with an anestetic? the amazment of the sacrifice wouldn't be there, neither would an intense love... why would you want that? PAX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrysologus Posted August 12, 2003 Share Posted August 12, 2003 That's intersting. Thank you, jessinoelw; I've been wondering about this for a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted August 12, 2003 Share Posted August 12, 2003 THere are no legitimate reasons for conception not to occur in a marriage. There can be legitimate reasons to delay or time concepton, but a couple must be open to life. THere are no legitimate reasons for sterilization either, even though it is widely referred to as Catholic birth control. Etopic pregnancies are not a reason to not concieve; they are something that cnnot be predicted ahead of time and are rare. THey are a reason to have a single tube ligation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vianney Posted August 12, 2003 Author Share Posted August 12, 2003 Look I know contraception shouldnt be used for these purposes stated above i am talking about medical reasons only! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasJis Posted August 12, 2003 Share Posted August 12, 2003 THere are no legitimate reasons for conception not to occur in a marriage. There can be legitimate reasons to delay or time concepton, but a couple must be open to life. THere are no legitimate reasons for sterilization either, even though it is widely referred to as Catholic birth control. Etopic pregnancies are not a reason to not concieve; they are something that cnnot be predicted ahead of time and are rare. THey are a reason to have a single tube ligation. CMom, You are so right again. I read your post and went back looking in the Catechism. The search function is great. I had referred to another paragraph that said sterilization might not be wrong for legitimate medical theuraputic reasons. That would be because of cancer, etc. Not to prevent conception. Exactly as CMom stated: 2399 The regulation of births represents one of the aspects of responsible fatherhood and motherhood. Legitimate intentions on the part of the spouses do not justify recourse to morally unacceptable means (for example, direct sterilization or contraception). Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted August 13, 2003 Share Posted August 13, 2003 Look I know contraception shouldnt be used for these purposes stated above i am talking about medical reasons only! Women are put on the pil for a variety of odd reasons: their period is too short, too long, too heavy, too light etc. The docter rarely looks for a valid medical reason , they just perscribe the pill. My friend is on the pill because she is a hemophiliac, so it shortens her periods Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vianney Posted August 13, 2003 Author Share Posted August 13, 2003 Women are put on the pil for a variety of odd reasons: their period is too short, too long, too heavy, too light etc. The docter rarely looks for a valid medical reason , they just perscribe the pill. So are you saying that it is ok for doctors to prescribe the pill for medical reasons or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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