Morals Not From God

[eagle_eye222001]

What's the best argument for morals that do not come from God?

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[T-Bone _]

What morals don't come from God?

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='T-Bone _' post='1910203' date='Jul 4 2009, 01:34 AM']What morals don't come from God?[/quote]

I agree that all morals ultimately come from God......however non-religious people won't necessarily acknowledge that and I was wondering what arguments they use,

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[T-Bone _]

Most of those people argue that morals come from society. Which means that they change on a whim--so it's not a strong argument.

[Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam]

[quote]What's the best argument for morals that do not come from God?[/quote]

When you use the term morals, I am guessing you mean something in the way of ethics or values. The Enlightenment Project was essentially to create a way of thinking and an ethics without God. I believe it ultimately failed, at least to convince me anyway. However, I do think it is possible to come to a rational understanding of what we call the Human and Cardinal Virtues with reason alone but I think it is impossible to come to the Theological Virtues without the aid of faith. That being said, Aristotle wrote a wonderful book called the Nichomachean Ethics that sets up a kind of Virtue Ethics without referencing God or depending on the existence and mandate of a god. It is one of my favorite books. I highly recommend it. This understanding is open to those who do not believe in God but I find that many people do not use it.

Edited July 4, 2009 by Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam

[OraProMe]

I have a few friends that think the only real moral principle is that you shouldn't do anything to harm others.

The rest is pretty subjective and cultural. I disagree with them but can see where they're coming from.

[bonkers]

[quote name='eagle_eye222001' post='1910189' date='Jul 4 2009, 01:27 AM']What's the best argument for morals that do not come from God?

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I think the best argument is to put the onus back on the religious folk to prove morals come from god. Why should we assume morals come from anything? If god, then perhaps the sun, or the moon, or trees or absolutely anything, or perhaps something invisible and unknowable. I don't think it's a great mystery. Pro-social tends to achieve positive outcomes and anti-social behaviour negative outcomes, so it's more conducive to survival to be good rather than bad. Societies are stronger as a collective group with accepted rules and standards than a group that is disbanded and anarchistic.

The "morals" argument apparently one of the religious folks stronger arguments for the existence of god, but I think it's pretty weak.

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam' post='1910248' date='Jul 4 2009, 02:40 AM']When you use the term morals, I am guessing you mean something in the way of ethics or values. The Enlightenment Project was essentially to create a way of thinking and an ethics without God. I believe it ultimately failed, at least to convince me anyway. However, I do think it is possible to come to a rational understanding of what we call the Human and Cardinal Virtues with reason alone but I think it is impossible to come to the Theological Virtues without the aid of faith. That being said, Aristotle wrote a wonderful book called the Nichomachean Ethics that sets up a kind of Virtue Ethics without referencing God or depending on the existence and mandate of a god. It is one of my favorite books. I highly recommend it. This understanding is open to those who do not believe in God but I find that many people do not use it.[/quote]

Interesting post. Thanks.

[quote name='OraProMe' post='1910314' date='Jul 4 2009, 03:36 AM']I have a few friends that think the only real moral principle is that you shouldn't do anything to harm others.[/quote]

Horribly vague and subjective.

[quote]The rest is pretty subjective and cultural. I disagree with them but can see where they're coming from.[/quote]

Where do they come from?

[quote name='bonkers' post='1910380' date='Jul 4 2009, 04:32 AM']I think the best argument is to put the onus back on the religious folk to prove morals come from god. Why should we assume morals come from anything? If god, then perhaps the sun, or the moon, or trees or absolutely anything, or perhaps something invisible and unknowable. I don't think it's a great mystery. Pro-social tends to achieve positive outcomes and anti-social behaviour negative outcomes, so it's more conducive to survival to be good rather than bad. Societies are stronger as a collective group with accepted rules and standards than a group that is disbanded and anarchistic.

The "morals" argument apparently one of the religious folks stronger arguments for the existence of god, but I think it's pretty weak.[/quote]

So you would start with their being no morals at all in which case nothing is inherently wrong and such historical events such as the culture of 1930s Germany can be justified?

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[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='eagle_eye222001' post='1910643' date='Jul 4 2009, 09:39 AM']Horribly vague and subjective. [/quote]
You need to learn that in a world without a god, subjective isn't a bad thing. Calling an atheist's beliefs "subjective" isn't offensive to them.

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1910788' date='Jul 4 2009, 03:01 PM']You need to learn that in a world without a god, subjective isn't a bad thing. Calling an atheist's beliefs "subjective" isn't offensive to them.[/quote]

True. Which is why the next step is to show the dangers of being subjective.

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[tinytherese]

I once read it this way in the booklet How to Stay Catholic in College, that relativism refutes itself because saying that "There is no truth" is also saying that even that statement is not true.

I remember being asked by one of my Protestant friends about whether the Catholic Church teaches that Mary stayed a virgin her entire life and I said yes. She then praised Christianity for having such diversity. I thought, "well either she was a virgin all of her life or she wasn't. The Catholic Church and various Protestant Churches can't both be right."

I remember on EWTN years ago when a brother was talking with some children and he held a puppy in his hands. He said that a puppy was in his hands and then gave it to one of the children. Then he said, "The puppy is in my hands." Yet the puppy was still NOT in his hands. He said, "Well I believe that the puppy is in my hands." That didn't matter. "I think that the puppy is in my hands." Again that didn't make the puppy there. "I feel the puppy in my hands." Nope, the puppy still wasn't there. In the end it doesn't matter what we say, believe, think, or feel. The truth will still be the truth.

[Hassan]

[quote name='eagle_eye222001' post='1910643' date='Jul 4 2009, 10:39 AM']So you would start with their being no morals at all in which case nothing is inherently wrong and such historical events such as the culture of 1930s Germany can be justified?[/quote]


Well your moral world permits your God to order the wholesale annihilation of a people, every man woman and child, if he so wills. I hardly call that an improvement.

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1910902' date='Jul 4 2009, 07:22 PM']Well your moral world permits your God to order the wholesale annihilation of a people, every man woman and child, if he so wills. I hardly call that an improvement.[/quote]

God created life and he can take it away. He also gave us an absolute truth to follow. By being God, he's in charge and he exists whether you want him too or not.

[Jesus_lol]

[img]http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r267/diablo_man/proof-is-in-the-poseidon-1.jpg[/img]

[Winchester]

[quote name='eagle_eye222001' post='1910209' date='Jul 4 2009, 01:36 AM']I agree that all morals ultimately come from God......however non-religious people won't necessarily acknowledge that and I was wondering what arguments they use,[/quote]
If an atheist argues for morals, he is either an idiot or a weakling. In either case, he isn't worth your time. The best argument for these intellectual cowards is that there really is no morality. It might scare them into shutting up.