Auricular Confession

[PeteWaldo]

It was suggested that the subject of auricular confession, was too off-topic in the thread regarding converting Orthodox for the reason of confession, so it was suggested that I start a new thread.

Perhaps the confessional has changed in the last hundred years but a similar account to the below was written in 1949.
If the confessional has changed in the last 50 years I don't imagine it's because the questions that are recommended to be asked of young girls and women/wives, in the writings of Saint Liguori, Dens, Burchard, Debreyne, and Kenrick, have been repudiated by the Roman Catholic Church over the last 50 years, but I don't know.
Perhaps today, whether or not to ask certain questions is left up to the discretion of the individual priest, but that was certainly not the case a hundred years ago as they were compelled to ask them.

The following is in the public domain and not subject to copyright.
It's an excerpt from "50 Years in the Church of Rome", by Charles Chiniquy, who was in the Roman Catholic Church for 50 years, and became a widely renowned and greatly respected Roman Catholic priest for 25 years. He was highly regarded and recognized as the head of the Canadian temperance movement, that he also carried into the U.S. Midwest.
[url="http://www.biblebelievers.com/chiniquy/cc50_ch34.html"]http://www.biblebelievers.com/chiniquy/cc50_ch34.html[/url]

On auricular confession:

"For I do not exaggerate when I say, that for many noble-hearted, welleducated, high-minded women, to be forced to unveil their hearts before the eyes of a man, to open to him all the most secret recesses of their souls, all the most sacred mysteries of their single or married life, to allow him to put to them questions which the most depraved woman would never consent to hear from her vilest seducer, is often more horrible and intolerable than to be tied on burning coals.

More than once I have seen women fainting in the confessional-box, who told me afterwards that the necessity of speaking to an unmarried man on certain things, on which the most common laws of decency ought to have for ever sealed their lips, had almost killed them! Not hundreds, but thousands of times, I have heard from the lips of dying girls, as well as married women, the awful words: "I am for ever lost! All my past confessions and communions have been so many sacrileges! I have never dared to answer correctly the questions of my confessors! Shame has sealed my lips an damned my soul!"

How many times I remained as one petrified, by the side of a corpse, when these last words having hardly escaped the lips of one of my female penitents, who had been snatched out of my reach by the merciless hand of death, before I could give her pardon through the deceitful sacramental absolution? I then believed, as the dead sinner herself had believed, that she should not be forgiven except by that absolution.

For there are not only thousands, but millions of Roman Catholic girls and women, whose keen sense of modest and womanly dignity, are above all the sophisms and diabolical machinations of their priests. They can never be persuaded to answer "Yes" to certain questions of their confessors. They would prefer to be thrown into the flames, and burnt to ashes with the Brahmin widows, rather than allow the eyes of a man to pry into the sacred sanctuary of their souls. Though sometimes guilty before God, and under the impression that their sins will never be forgiven if not confessed, the laws of decency are stronger in their hearts than the laws of their perfidious Church. No consideration not even the fear of eternal damnation, can persuade them to declare to a sinful man, sins which God alone has the right to know, for He alone can blot them out with the blood of His Son, shed on the cross."

To continue hit the link and scroll down 5 paragraphs:
[url="http://www.biblebelievers.com/chiniquy/cc50_ch54.html"]http://www.biblebelievers.com/chiniquy/cc50_ch54.html[/url]

Edited July 3, 2009 by PeteWaldo

[CatherineM]

I have never once felt uncomfortable discussing any sin in the confessional. In there, I am speaking to God, who already knows all my sins.

[PeteWaldo]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1909076' date='Jul 3 2009, 09:05 AM']I have never once felt uncomfortable discussing any sin in the confessional. In there, I am speaking to God, who already knows all my sins.[/quote]
Are you of the understanding that if you intentionally conceal a single sin, or even a single sinful thought, from your confessor, that it not only nullifies your confession but turns it into a sacrilege?
(as referenced in the second paragraph of the quoted)

Or were you taught otherwise?

[CatherineM]

[quote name='PeteWaldo' post='1909100' date='Jul 3 2009, 08:44 AM']Are you of the understanding that if you intentionally conceal a single sin, or even a single sinful thought, from your confessor, that it not only nullifies your confession but turns it into a sacrilege?
(as referenced in the second paragraph of the quoted)

Or were you taught otherwise?[/quote]

The Council of Trent teaches that knowingly withholding a sin from our confessor means that none of the sins we have confessed will be placed before God. However, the Catechism (1458) teaches that the confession of everyday faults (venial sins) isn't strictly necessary, but recommended. There are many times that priests don't want to hear a full litany of our venial sins.

[PeteWaldo]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1909109' date='Jul 3 2009, 10:18 AM']The Council of Trent teaches that knowingly withholding a sin from our confessor means that none of the sins we have confessed will be placed before God. However, the Catechism (1458) teaches that the confession of everyday faults (venial sins) isn't strictly necessary, but recommended. There are many times that priests don't want to hear a full litany of our venial sins.[/quote]
Thank you. To the second point, does the confession become a sacrilege if you conceal any mortal sins?

Edited July 3, 2009 by PeteWaldo

[CatherineM]

[quote name='PeteWaldo' post='1909114' date='Jul 3 2009, 09:21 AM']Thank you. To the second point, does the confession become a sacrilege if you conceal any mortal sins?[/quote]


Proverbs 2:13 says, "13 He who conceals his transgressions will not prosper, but he who confesses and forsakes them will obtain mercy." Not confessing a mortal sin was certainly a sacrilege under the Baltimore Catechism. That language for attrition isn't present in the new Catechism. It speaks more to how imperfect contrition can also be a gift from God because it can initiate the inner process of conscience, and with the prompting of God's grace, we can eventually seek full sacramental absolution.

[PeteWaldo]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1909122' date='Jul 3 2009, 10:38 AM']Proverbs 2:13 says, "13 He who conceals his transgressions will not prosper, but he who confesses and forsakes them will obtain mercy." Not confessing a mortal sin was certainly a sacrilege under the Baltimore Catechism. That language for attrition isn't present in the new Catechism. It speaks more to how imperfect contrition can also be a gift from God because it can initiate the inner process of conscience, and with the prompting of God's grace, we can eventually seek full sacramental absolution.[/quote]
Thank you again.
So before the new Catechism, if a man or woman had a sexual thought (fleeting fantasy) regarding someone who wasn't their husband or wife for example, or had any otherwise impure sexual thought, they would have been required to confess that thought to their confessor?
Otherwise, from the moment they failed to disclose that impure sexual thought to their confessor, and for as long as they failed to, they would have continued to maintain the loss of their salvation?

But under the new Catechism it's OK to conceal mortal sins from one's confessor and consider it a God given gift to do so?
(I presume the "new Catechism" to which you refer is the 1992 one?)

[CatherineM]

[quote name='PeteWaldo' post='1909145' date='Jul 3 2009, 10:07 AM']Thank you again.
So before the new Catechism, if a man or woman had a sexual thought (fleeting fantasy) regarding someone who wasn't their husband or wife for example, or had any otherwise impure sexual thought, they would have been required to confess that thought to their confessor?
Otherwise, from the moment they failed to disclose that impure sexual thought to their confessor, and for as long as they failed to, they would have continued to maintain the loss of their salvation?

But under the new Catechism it's OK to conceal mortal sins from one's confessor and consider it a God given gift to do so?
(I presume the "new Catechism" to which you refer is the 1992 one?)[/quote]

It's never okay to conceal mortal sins. I guess we just understand more about brokenness than we used to. There can be a grace from having sin weigh you down because once you make a proper confession, and that weight is lifted, you truly can feel the gift of the sacrament. You can't know how high the mountains are unless you have walked for a time in the valley. We are all sinners. Even those who always make perfect confessions.

[PeteWaldo]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1909163' date='Jul 3 2009, 11:19 AM']It's never okay to conceal mortal sins.[/quote]Then I guess I misunderstood the term "imperfect contrition", since you had already addressed the less necessary disclosure of all the venial sins.
So I thought the term "imperfect contrition" referred to nondisclosure of mortal sins.
Perhaps better if I had said "unnecessary to disclose" rather than "OK".
[quote name='CatherineM' post='1909163' date='Jul 3 2009, 11:19 AM']I guess we just understand more about brokenness than we used to.[/quote]Than was understood over the prior 1950 years of Roman Catholicism? [quote name='CatherineM' post='1909163' date='Jul 3 2009, 11:19 AM']There can be a grace from having sin weigh you down because once you make a proper confession, and that weight is lifted, you truly can feel the gift of the sacrament. You can't know how high the mountains are unless you have walked for a time in the valley. We are all sinners. Even those who always make perfect confessions.[/quote]Indeed we all are sister.

Edited July 3, 2009 by PeteWaldo

[CatherineM]

[quote name='PeteWaldo' post='1909197' date='Jul 3 2009, 10:59 AM']Then I guess I misunderstood the term "imperfect contrition", since you had already addressed the less necessary disclosure of all the venial sins.
So I thought the term "imperfect contrition" referred to nondisclosure of mortal sins.
Perhaps better if I had said "unnecessary" rather than "OK".
Than was understood over the prior 1950 years of Roman Catholicism? Indeed we all are sister.[/quote]

Sometimes parents only explain things to their children that they are ready to understand. It works the same way with the Holy Spirit. He guides the Church, keeps it from errors, but at the same time, he can't give us everything we need to understand all at once. Imperfect contrition does refer to the non-disclosure of mortal sins. It doesn't matter if you call it a sacrilege or attrition or a big naughty boo-boo, we are called to disclose all our mortal sins, but sometimes we don't reach that perfection. We just have to keep trying.

[PeteWaldo]

Thank you again.
Certainly a far different approach than before.

"In the beginning of my priesthood, I was not a little surprised and embarrassed to see a very accomplished and beautiful young lady, whom I used to meet almost every week at her father's house, entering the box of my confessional. She had been used to confess to another young priest of my acquaintance, and she was always looked upon as one of the most pious girls of the city. Though she had disguised herself as much as possible, in order that I might not know her, I felt sure that I was not mistaken—she was the amiable Mary * *

Not being absolutely certain of the correctness of my impressions, I left her entirely under the hope that she was a perfect stranger to me. At the beginning she could hardly speak; her voice was suffocated by her sobs; and through the little apertures of the thin partition between her and me, I saw two streams of big tears trickling down her cheeks.

After much effort, she said: "Dear Father, I hope you do not know me, and that you will never try to know me. I am a desperately great sinner. Oh! I fear that I am lost! But if there is still a hope for me to be saved, for God's sake, do not rebuke me! Before I begin my confession, allow me to ask you not to pollute my ears by questions which our confessors are in the habit of putting to their female penitents; I have already been destroyed by those questions. Before I was seventeen years old, God knows that His angels are not more pure than I was; but the chaplain of the Nunnery where my parents had sent me for my education, though approaching old age, put to me, in the confessional, a question which at first I did not understand, but, unfortunately, he had put the same questions to one of my young class-mates, who made fun of them in my presence, and explained them to me; for she understood them too well. This first unchaste conversation of my life plunged my thoughts into a sea of iniquity, till then absolutely unknown to me; temptations of the most humiliating character assailed me for a week, day and night; after which, sins which I would blot out with my blood, if it were possible, overwhelmed my soul as with a deluge. But the joys of the sinner are short. Struck with terror at the thought of the judgments of God, after a few weeks of the most deplorable life, I determined to give up my sins and reconcile myself to God. Covered with shame, and trembling from head to foot, I went to confess to my old confessor, whom I respected as a saint and cherished as a father. It seems to me that, with sincere tears of repentance, I confessed to him the greatest part of my sins, though I concealed one of them, through shame, and respect for my spiritual guide. But I did not conceal from him that the strange questions he had put to me at my last confession, were, with the natural corruption of my heart, the principal cause of my destruction.

He spoke to me very kindly, encouraged me to fight against my bad inclinations, and, at first, gave me very kind and good advice. But when I thought he had finished speaking, and as I was preparing to leave the confessional-box, he put to me two new questions of such a polluting character that, I fear neither the blood of Christ, nor all the fires of hell will ever be able to blot them out from my memory. Those questions have achieved my ruin; they have stuck to my mind like two deadly arrows; they are day and night before my imagination; they fill my very arteries and veins with a deadly poison.

"It is true that, at first, they filled me with horror and disgust; but alas! I soon got so accustomed to them that they seemed to be incorporated with me, and as if becoming a second nature. Those thoughts have become a new source of innumerable criminal thoughts, desires and actions.

"A month later, we were obliged by the rules of our convent to go and confess; but by this time, I was so completely lost, that I no longer blushed at the idea of confessing my shameful sins to a man; it was the very contrary. I had a real, diabolical pleasure in the thought that I should have a long conversation with my confessor on those matters, and that he would ask me more of his strange questions.

"In fact, when I had told him everything without a blush, he began to interrogate me, and God knows what corrupting things fell from his lips into my poor criminal heart! Every one of his questions was thrilling my nerves, and filling me with the most shameful sensations. After an hour of this criminal tete-a-tete with my old confessor (for it was nothing else but a criminal tete-a-tete), I perceived that he was as depraved as I was myself. With some half-covered words, he made a criminal proposition, which I accepted with covered words also; and during more than a year, we have lived together on the most sinful intimacy. Though he was much older than I, I loved him in the most foolish way. When the course of my convent instruction was finished, my parents called me back to their home. I was really glad of that change of residence, for I was beginning to be tired of my criminal life. My hope was that, under the direction of a better confessor, I should reconcile myself to God and begin a Christian life.

"Unfortunately for me, my new confessor, who was very young, began also his interrogations. He soon fell in love with me, and I loved him in a most criminal way. I have done with him things which I hope you will never request me to reveal to you, for they are too monstrous to be repeated, even in the confessional, by a woman to a man.

"I do not say these things to take away the responsibility of my iniquities with this young confessor, from my shoulders, for I think I have been more criminal than he was. It is my firm conviction that he was a good and holy priest before he knew me; but the questions he put to me, and the answers I had to give him, melted his heart—I know it—just as boiling lead would melt the ice on which it flows.

"I know this is not such a detailed confession as our holy Church requires me to make, but I have thought it necessary for me to give you this short history of the life of the greatest and most miserable sinner who ever asked you to help her to come out from the tomb of her iniquities. This is the way I have lived these last few years. But last Sabbath, God, in His infinite mercy, looked down upon me. He inspired you to give us the Prodigal Son as a model of true conversion, and as the most marvelous proof of the infinite compassion of the dear Saviour for the sinner. I have wept day and night since that happy day, when I threw myself into the arms of my loving, merciful Father. Even now I can hardly speak, because my regret for my past iniquities, and my joy that I am allowed to bathe the feet of the Saviour with tears, are so great that my voice is as choked."

If you're interested in reading further scroll almost halfway down the link page.
[url="http://www.biblebelievers.com/chiniquy/cc50_ch54.html"]http://www.biblebelievers.com/chiniquy/cc50_ch54.html[/url]

Edited July 3, 2009 by PeteWaldo

[thessalonian]

Peter,

We are not required to confess every little detailed sin we committ. As Catherine said, venial sins are not required to be confessed. A passing lust probably is not mortal unless it is dwelled on and so would not need to be confessed. However when I confess I do my best to confess as much as I can especially if it bothers me. We also trust that the Holy Spirit will convict our minds of our worst falts and lead us to the proper path of correcting them. Your questions show lack of understanding of confession, rather than real problems with the sacrament. I've never had a priest treat me in any way different because of what I have confessed. What you are arguing is misconeptions that are rarely a problem in practice.

It is amazing that in all the years of confession I have not yet been presented on instance of excommunication of a preist who revealed a confession. This excommunication is automatic.

Edited July 3, 2009 by thessalonian

[CatherineM]

[quote name='PeteWaldo' post='1909248' date='Jul 3 2009, 12:58 PM']Thank you again.
Certainly a far different approach than before.

"In the beginning of my priesthood, I was not a little surprised and embarrassed to see a very accomplished and beautiful young lady, whom I used to meet almost every week at her father's house, entering the box of my confessional. She had been used to confess to another young priest of my acquaintance, and she was always looked upon as one of the most pious girls of the city. Though she had disguised herself as much as possible, in order that I might not know her, I felt sure that I was not mistaken—she was the amiable Mary * *

Not being absolutely certain of the correctness of my impressions, I left her entirely under the hope that she was a perfect stranger to me. At the beginning she could hardly speak; her voice was suffocated by her sobs; and through the little apertures of the thin partition between her and me, I saw two streams of big tears trickling down her cheeks.

After much effort, she said: "Dear Father, I hope you do not know me, and that you will never try to know me. I am a desperately great sinner. Oh! I fear that I am lost! But if there is still a hope for me to be saved, for God's sake, do not rebuke me! Before I begin my confession, allow me to ask you not to pollute my ears by questions which our confessors are in the habit of putting to their female penitents; I have already been destroyed by those questions. Before I was seventeen years old, God knows that His angels are not more pure than I was; but the chaplain of the Nunnery where my parents had sent me for my education, though approaching old age, put to me, in the confessional, a question which at first I did not understand, but, unfortunately, he had put the same questions to one of my young class-mates, who made fun of them in my presence, and explained them to me; for she understood them too well. This first unchaste conversation of my life plunged my thoughts into a sea of iniquity, till then absolutely unknown to me; temptations of the most humiliating character assailed me for a week, day and night; after which, sins which I would blot out with my blood, if it were possible, overwhelmed my soul as with a deluge. But the joys of the sinner are short. Struck with terror at the thought of the judgments of God, after a few weeks of the most deplorable life, I determined to give up my sins and reconcile myself to God. Covered with shame, and trembling from head to foot, I went to confess to my old confessor, whom I respected as a saint and cherished as a father. It seems to me that, with sincere tears of repentance, I confessed to him the greatest part of my sins, though I concealed one of them, through shame, and respect for my spiritual guide. But I did not conceal from him that the strange questions he had put to me at my last confession, were, with the natural corruption of my heart, the principal cause of my destruction.

He spoke to me very kindly, encouraged me to fight against my bad inclinations, and, at first, gave me very kind and good advice. But when I thought he had finished speaking, and as I was preparing to leave the confessional-box, he put to me two new questions of such a polluting character that, I fear neither the blood of Christ, nor all the fires of hell will ever be able to blot them out from my memory. Those questions have achieved my ruin; they have stuck to my mind like two deadly arrows; they are day and night before my imagination; they fill my very arteries and veins with a deadly poison.

"It is true that, at first, they filled me with horror and disgust; but alas! I soon got so accustomed to them that they seemed to be incorporated with me, and as if becoming a second nature. Those thoughts have become a new source of innumerable criminal thoughts, desires and actions.

"A month later, we were obliged by the rules of our convent to go and confess; but by this time, I was so completely lost, that I no longer blushed at the idea of confessing my shameful sins to a man; it was the very contrary. I had a real, diabolical pleasure in the thought that I should have a long conversation with my confessor on those matters, and that he would ask me more of his strange questions.

"In fact, when I had told him everything without a blush, he began to interrogate me, and God knows what corrupting things fell from his lips into my poor criminal heart! Every one of his questions was thrilling my nerves, and filling me with the most shameful sensations. After an hour of this criminal tete-a-tete with my old confessor (for it was nothing else but a criminal tete-a-tete), I perceived that he was as depraved as I was myself. With some half-covered words, he made a criminal proposition, which I accepted with covered words also; and during more than a year, we have lived together on the most sinful intimacy. Though he was much older than I, I loved him in the most foolish way. When the course of my convent instruction was finished, my parents called me back to their home. I was really glad of that change of residence, for I was beginning to be tired of my criminal life. My hope was that, under the direction of a better confessor, I should reconcile myself to God and begin a Christian life.

"Unfortunately for me, my new confessor, who was very young, began also his interrogations. He soon fell in love with me, and I loved him in a most criminal way. I have done with him things which I hope you will never request me to reveal to you, for they are too monstrous to be repeated, even in the confessional, by a woman to a man.

"I do not say these things to take away the responsibility of my iniquities with this young confessor, from my shoulders, for I think I have been more criminal than he was. It is my firm conviction that he was a good and holy priest before he knew me; but the questions he put to me, and the answers I had to give him, melted his heart—I know it—just as boiling lead would melt the ice on which it flows.

"I know this is not such a detailed confession as our holy Church requires me to make, but I have thought it necessary for me to give you this short history of the life of the greatest and most miserable sinner who ever asked you to help her to come out from the tomb of her iniquities. This is the way I have lived these last few years. But last Sabbath, God, in His infinite mercy, looked down upon me. He inspired you to give us the Prodigal Son as a model of true conversion, and as the most marvelous proof of the infinite compassion of the dear Saviour for the sinner. I have wept day and night since that happy day, when I threw myself into the arms of my loving, merciful Father. Even now I can hardly speak, because my regret for my past iniquities, and my joy that I am allowed to bathe the feet of the Saviour with tears, are so great that my voice is as choked."

If you're interested in reading further scroll almost halfway down the link page.
[url="http://www.biblebelievers.com/chiniquy/cc50_ch54.html"]http://www.biblebelievers.com/chiniquy/cc50_ch54.html[/url][/quote]

I have no idea who wrote this, but it is tripe. Those of us who have experience the grace of the sacrament of reconciliation could never write something so silly. I thought you were asking legitimate questions about our faith, but instead are only interested in Catholic bashing. I have no time for that type of bigotry.