OraProMe Posted July 4, 2009 Author Share Posted July 4, 2009 ha, yeah. That's what I mean. Why would you have to react badly? Couldn't you just realize that it's up to them to save their soul and get on with being friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 I wouldn't necessarily react angrily. I would just be very disappointed and show that disappointment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rachael Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 [quote name='OraProMe' post='1910539' date='Jul 4 2009, 08:07 AM']ha, yeah. That's what I mean. Why would you have to react badly? Couldn't you just realize that it's up to them to save their soul and get on with being friends.[/quote] yes. people aren't going to stop living or sinning just because they're afraid of how you might react. they'll just learn to hide it better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 [quote name='rachael' post='1910541' date='Jul 4 2009, 08:09 AM']yes. people aren't going to stop living or sinning just because they're afraid of how you might react. they'll just learn to hide it better.[/quote] That's probably true in most cases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OraProMe Posted July 4, 2009 Author Share Posted July 4, 2009 [quote name='rachael' post='1910512' date='Jul 4 2009, 07:42 AM']were you this uptight when you were 15? [/quote] Probably, I was a full on hardcore traditionalist when I was 15. Lots like Rex actually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 (edited) We probably would have gotten along much better if you were still fifteen. Edited July 4, 2009 by Resurrexi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OraProMe Posted July 4, 2009 Author Share Posted July 4, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1910549' date='Jul 4 2009, 08:29 AM']We probably would have gotten along much better if you were still fifteen. [/quote] I think we'd get along pretty well now if we could both agree to leave the homosexuality thing alone. I was a lot like you (you may have picked up some traditionalist sentiments when I referenced books of Arch. Lefebvre) and I can look back at myself in retrospect and see many of the tendencies you exhibit now. Rigid belief, accepting something just because the Church says so, need for an almost exlusive religion (hence heavy emphasis on canon law and EENS), desire to see the world in black and white, inability to take other peoples viewpoints into account etc. A lot of stuff. It doesn't make for a healthy religion or a productive encounter with the world. I know where you are coming from, that's why I get onto you so much. Edited July 4, 2009 by OraProMe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rachael Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 [quote name='OraProMe' post='1910555' date='Jul 4 2009, 08:38 AM']I think we'd get along pretty well now if we could both agree to leave the homosexuality thing alone. I was a lot like you (you may have picked up some traditionalist sentiments when I referenced books of Arch. Lefebvre) and I can look back at myself in retrospect and see many of the tendencies you exhibit now. Rigid belief, accepting something just because the Church says so, need for an almost exlusive religion (hence heavy emphasis on canon law and EENS), desire to see the world in black and white, inability to take other peoples viewpoints into account etc. A lot of stuff. It doesn't make for a healthy religion or a productive encounter with the world. I know where you are coming from, that's why I get onto you so much.[/quote] i was on my way there once. then i learned to question things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIKolbe Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1910524' date='Jul 4 2009, 06:53 AM']I don't take myself too seriously except when I'm talking about theology.[/quote] don't worry.. I don't take you too seriously ESPECIALLY when you are talking theology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 [quote name='OraProMe' post='1910555' date='Jul 4 2009, 08:38 AM']accepting something just because the Church says so[/quote] I think that there is a point at which one just needs to accept what the Church teaches. One could spend his whole life analyzing every dogma to see if he could accept it. Whether or not he comes to realize that he does indeed accept all the dogmas of the Church, he has basically wasted his life. Even if you think that everyone [i]should [/i]spend his life analyzing every dogma to see if he finds each one convincing enough, not everyone has that time. Most adults have jobs and children. In fact, the reason that revealed religion is necessary, argues St. Thomas, is that not everyone has time to spend thinking about deep questions all day, nor is everyone smart enough to understand complex philosophical arguments. This is why I think that it is best just to accept what the Church teaches. I certainly don't understand every dogma; I don't always understand how I can even [i]accept [/i]every dogma. At the end of the day, though, I submit myself to the Church because I believe that God speaks to us through His Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OraProMe Posted July 4, 2009 Author Share Posted July 4, 2009 (edited) I'll continue, Rex. That approach to faith is bad because it relies not on human reason but on legalistic and magisterial assent. I once told you that if you keep following blindly you'll have a crisis and no amount of ecclesial documentation will help you. For me that "crisis" was accepting my homosexuality and when I honestly tried to answer questions for myself rather than looking up some obscure latin bull I started to see holes in the faith I'd built for myself. You're only 15, one day you'll come to a crisis and hopefully your faith will have matured to a point where you're able to question and not fall flat on your face. I don't think you need to amend your positions, I just think you need to approach them differently and learn more productive ways to express your beliefs. Edited July 4, 2009 by OraProMe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rachael Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1910566' date='Jul 4 2009, 08:50 AM']I think that there is a point at which one just needs to accept what the Church teaches.[/quote] What the heck?! You don't question what you learn?! That's like never questioning your parents... Blindly following faith is dangerous. Edited July 4, 2009 by rachael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIKolbe Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 OPM is right kinda what i told you in my pm, rexi... remember St. Paul.... The greatest among these is love. not canons, rubrics, GRIM, or the like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 [quote name='OraProMe' post='1910567' date='Jul 4 2009, 08:50 AM']I'll continue, Rex. That faith is bad because it relies not on human reason but on legalistic and magisterial assent. I once told you that if you keep following blindly you'll have a crisis and no amount of ecclesial documentation will help you. [/quote] Supernatural faith does not rely on human reason, Ora. If someone's faith in God relies only on reason, then it is not a supernatural faith, but a merely natural faith. The supernatural virtue of faith is accepting all the truths that the Church sets forth because God, who is the Truth itself, has made them known. Human faith in God precedes divine faith and boosts it up when in difficulty, but the divine and Catholic faith is accepting God's word because He cannot lie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rachael Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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