New Prostitution Poll

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1937913' date='Aug 1 2009, 11:05 AM']The women stay at the whorehouses not because "sin is usually easy," they are there because as far as they know they have no other options. While staying is wrong, I think it falls under the same category as a hungry person who has no other way to eat stealing bread. Most prostitutes do not do what they do because they enjoy it or because the sex is a temptation for them. They are where they are because others (in this case including the state) have decided to use them and have created conditions to continue the cycle of using.[/quote]


poppycock! Prostitutes create an near occasion of sin for all around them, and you are right it is not , ussally becase sex is a temtation for them, it is because of greed. No one in our counrty has to be a prostitute to survive, we may not be all the way to a nanny state, but one can indeed survive on welfare and food stamps. are you seriously saying that having sex for money is not sinful? Stealing to eat when there is no choice is one thing, but stealing to eat when there is a choice is a sin. In America, in a legal brothel situation there is a choice.

[quote name='Maggie' post='1937913' date='Aug 1 2009, 11:05 AM']The greatest part of the sin falls on the state of Nevada which has "legalized" human exploitation (as though such a thing could ever be truly legal) and directly profits from profound injustice.[/quote]


Of course it can be legal... it cannot be made moral bt being made legal is simply a statement by the state that it will no longer try to punicsh the behavior. For example, abortion is legal. It is murder of the innocent, but it is legal.

[quote name='Maggie' post='1937913' date='Aug 1 2009, 11:05 AM']I make it a practice to never try to second-guess the actions of bishops because as laymen we do not know the whole story. We have no idea what kind of censure or punishment Fr. Pfleger has come under as a result of his big mouth and in any case the Cardinal probably has other higher concerns, such as preventing a schism in the case. You are correct that this is neither here nor there, the reality is that the U.S. Bishops would absolutely oppose a movement to legalize prostitution, just as much as the Holy Father would speak out against attempts to legalize prostitution in Italy. AGAIN, if anyone starts a legalization campaign, this element of Catholic teaching will be quickly clarified for you by the local bishop. Augustine and Aquinas are great doctors, but our Faith depends on the teaching of our bishops and NOT on the hypotheses of any theologian, no matter how learned or holy. Aquinas would be the first to admit this.[/quote]
I know he is still serving at his parish... after advocating murder of someone who was doing nothing immoral at all. That is all I need to know. As for preventing schism... for 2000 years the Church has practiced a simple policy, one does not tolerate such behavior in the clergy schism or no.

Our Faith depends on the teaching of the Universal Magisterium, yes. The teachings of our Bishops, No. Our Bishop can be wrong, the majority of our bishops can be wrong. Witness the fact thatthe majority of English bishops went with Henry the Eighth. The majority of Bishops are only infallable at a Council.

Further this is not an issue of Faith or morals.... no one disputes that prostitution is immoral, only if the state should punish it?




Of course, you assume that I think it should be legalized... which I do not recall ever saying. I have said it might be permissable for the state to legalize it, but not that I thought it SHOULD be legal. I am just waiting for a good reason why t should be illegal and fornication should not be.

[Maggyie]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1938145' date='Aug 1 2009, 06:16 PM']poppycock! Prostitutes create an near occasion of sin for all around them, and you are right it is not , ussally becase sex is a temtation for them, it is because of greed. No one in our counrty has to be a prostitute to survive, we may not be all the way to a nanny state, but one can indeed survive on welfare and food stamps. are you seriously saying that having sex for money is not sinful? Stealing to eat when there is no choice is one thing, but stealing to eat when there is a choice is a sin. In America, in a legal brothel situation there is a choice.[/quote]


Spending some time in ministry with prostitutes might change your mind about why these people do what they do. Yes at the root of it is greed but it is not usually the greed of the men, women, teenagers and children who have been caught up in the machine, even in the U.S. (there are some wealthy pimps and madams but not a lot of wealthy whores). NO person freely chooses to be a prostitute unless

[list=1]
[*]No other path to survival seems possible or
[*]They are suffering from severe emotional or spiritual wounds, including addiction.
[/list]

We also musn't understimate the psychological damage experienced by someone who is used for sex. From the outside it seems clear to us that they have a choice and should get out of the profession; to someone who is routinely sexually exploited, often there does not seem to be any way out. In fact sometimes they come to believe that they deserve to be treated this way or that they are no good for anything else.


[quote]Of course it can be legal... it cannot be made moral bt being made legal is simply a statement by the state that it will no longer try to punicsh the behavior. For example, abortion is legal. It is murder of the innocent, but it is legal.[/quote]

There are certain crimes that can never be considered legal, even if the state at one point or another approves of them. This was widely recognized at Nuremberg, for instance - it did the defendants no good to point out that their government's laws allowed and even required such things. Crimes that can never be considered legal even if they are tolerated (or committed) by this state or that state include genocide, abortion and other forms of murder; slavery, cloning, torture, etc. Although unfortunately the global community does not yet recongize abortion as the human rights violation that it is.

[quote]I know he is still serving at his parish... after advocating murder of someone who was doing nothing immoral at all. That is all I need to know. As for preventing schism... for 2000 years the Church has practiced a simple policy, one does not tolerate such behavior in the clergy schism or no.[/quote]

He probably did not seriously intend to suggest the gun seller should be murdered (for all his stupidity in other ways, he does seem sincerely committed to nonviolence). It's more likely that Father's frustation, combined with his fondness for running his mouth, caused him to step in it in a big way. Father Pfleger's behavior is definitely not the worst that the Church has tolerated in the clergy in her 2,000 years, just look at the Renaissance... or examine the scandalous revelations of the last 10 years.

[quote]Of course, you assume that I think it should be legalized... which I do not recall ever saying. I have said it might be permissable for the state to legalize it, but not that I thought it SHOULD be legal. I am just waiting for a good reason why t should be illegal and fornication should not be.[/quote]

The reason prostitution should be illegal and fornication should not is because prostitution is exploitation. While a couple who are fornicating may be exploiting each other in the sense that they treat each other as objects, prostitution reduces human beings to economic comodities much as pornagraphy, the black market for organs, and embryonic stem cell research do (all of these things should also be illegal).

[Maggyie]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1937934' date='Aug 1 2009, 12:52 PM']Are you so sure about that?


ROMAN CATHOLIC BISHOP SUPPORTS THE WI'S CAMPAIGN TO LEGALISE BROTHELS

A Roman Catholic bishop is backing a campaign to legalise brothels after the Women's Institute announced that it supports the licensing of them.[/quote]


THAT Bishop Hollis?

[quote]The bishop’s message, posted on the website of the Portsmouth diocese, says, “With millions of others, I have been thrilled by Barack Obama’s victory and I thank God for it. For me, it represents a rare moment of hope and optimism which shows American democracy at its best and it is of seismic significance and potential for the whole global community. And so, more than ever now, he deserves and needs us to keep him in our prayers.”

This ardent welcome from Hollis, known in Britain to be on the extreme left of the Catholic Church, is in sharp contrast to a letter issued yesterday by the US Conference of Catholic Bishops, in which they warned Obama that “aggressive pro-abortion policies, legislation and executive orders will permanently alienate tens of millions of Americans, and would be seen by many as an attack on the free exercise of their religion.”
...

Hollis is well known in Britain as the representative of the extreme left of the Church hierarchy. Last year, when Hollis issued a statement in support of a call for legal brothels, he was denounced by prominent anti-trafficking campaigners who said he was encouraging an industry that legitimizes prostitution and “completely victimizes” women. [url="http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2008/nov/08111303.html"]LINK [/url][/quote]

I'm just saying...

[boudi]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1908521' date='Jul 2 2009, 07:06 PM']. . .[/quote]
Don't all of us engage in some form of prostitution. We sell ourselves every day in "acceptable" ways to make a living, be accepted, and avoid pain.

Sexual prostitution is an exercise of free will. Let's try to build a world where this option is not attractive or preferred.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1938311' date='Aug 1 2009, 08:39 PM']THAT Bishop Hollis?



I'm just saying...[/quote]

Goes to show you that Bishops too can be in error.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1938171' date='Aug 1 2009, 06:20 PM']Spending some time in ministry with prostitutes might change your mind about why these people do what they do. Yes at the root of it is greed but it is not usually the greed of the men, women, teenagers and children who have been caught up in the machine, even in the U.S. (there are some wealthy pimps and madams but not a lot of wealthy whores). NO person freely chooses to be a prostitute unless

[list=1]
[*]No other path to survival seems possible or
[*]They are suffering from severe emotional or spiritual wounds, including addiction.
[/list]

We also musn't understimate the psychological damage experienced by someone who is used for sex. From the outside it seems clear to us that they have a choice and should get out of the profession; to someone who is routinely sexually exploited, often there does not seem to be any way out. In fact sometimes they come to believe that they deserve to be treated this way or that they are no good for anything else.




There are certain crimes that can never be considered legal, even if the state at one point or another approves of them. This was widely recognized at Nuremberg, for instance - it did the defendants no good to point out that their government's laws allowed and even required such things. Crimes that can never be considered legal even if they are tolerated (or committed) by this state or that state include genocide, abortion and other forms of murder; slavery, cloning, torture, etc. Although unfortunately the global community does not yet recongize abortion as the human rights violation that it is.



He probably did not seriously intend to suggest the gun seller should be murdered (for all his stupidity in other ways, he does seem sincerely committed to nonviolence). It's more likely that Father's frustation, combined with his fondness for running his mouth, caused him to step in it in a big way. Father Pfleger's behavior is definitely not the worst that the Church has tolerated in the clergy in her 2,000 years, just look at the Renaissance... or examine the scandalous revelations of the last 10 years.



The reason prostitution should be illegal and fornication should not is because prostitution is exploitation. While a couple who are fornicating may be exploiting each other in the sense that they treat each other as objects, prostitution reduces human beings to economic comodities much as pornagraphy, the black market for organs, and embryonic stem cell research do (all of these things should also be illegal).[/quote]


I do not have time for a proper response to this.. I'll have to make this later.

[thessalonian]

Considering the roll eyes I got from resurexi concerning I find the following from the Catechims rather interesting and a bit humorous.

2354 Pornography consists in removing real or simulated sexual acts from the intimacy of the partners, in order to display them deliberately to third parties. It offends against chastity because it perverts the conjugal act, the intimate giving of spouses to each other. It does grave injury to the dignity of its participants (actors, vendors, the public), since each one becomes an object of base pleasure and illicit profit for others. It immerses all who are involved in the illusion of a fantasy world. It is a grave offense. Civil authorities should prevent the production and distribution of pornographic materials.

Hmmmm. So the thinks pornography should be regulated but not prostitution? I'll think it safe to say that prostitution is an even graver sin and thus don't feel to out of lline saying the Chruch thinks it should be banned.

[thessalonian]

Here is what the CCC says on prosttituon:

1: CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 2355 (605 bytes ) preview document matches
5 Prostitution does injury to the dignity of the person who engages in it, reducing the person to an instrument of sexual pleasure. [b]The one who pays sins gravely [/b]

Hmmm. Would prostitution fall under this duty below?

2255 It is the duty of citizens to work with civil authority for building up society in a spirit of truth, justice, solidarity, and freedom.

Seems to me it would.

[Nihil Obstat]

The same passage calls prostitution a "social scourge", their words. Just in case that didn't pop up when you searched it.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1939098' date='Aug 2 2009, 03:24 PM']The same passage calls prostitution a "social scourge", their words. Just in case that didn't pop up when you searched it.[/quote]

Of course prostitution is a social scourge. So is adultery. But do you suggest that adultery be made illegal as well?

Edited August 3, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Maggyie]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1939236' date='Aug 2 2009, 09:21 PM']Of course prostitution is a social scourge. So is adultery. But do you suggest that adultery be made illegal as well?[/quote]


Adultery IS illegal in the states of:

Alabama
Arizona
Colorado
Florida
Georgia
Illinois
Indiana
Kansas
Maryland
Massachusetts
Michigan
Minnesota
Mississippi
Missouri
Montana
North Carolina
Oklahoma
Rhode Island
South Carolina
Tennessee
Utah
Virginia

although obviously these laws are not always enforced. In the military, adultery can be prosecuted under Article 134 of the uniform code of military justice.

[Resurrexi]

Do you think that laws forbidding adultery [i]should[/i] be enforced?

[T-Bone _]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1939247' date='Aug 2 2009, 06:41 PM']Do you think that laws forbidding adultery [i]should[/i] be enforced?[/quote]

Why shouldn't they?

[Maggyie]

Why have a law against something if it's not going to be enforced? If the state doesn't want to do it they should repeal the law.

[CatherineM]

I think if the laws are on the books, they should be enforced or repealed.