New Prostitution Poll

[zunshynn]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1911308' date='Jul 5 2009, 12:34 AM']I am not contradicting myself at all. Traditionally, in societies which tolerated prostitution men valued women more than they do today, where instead of haveing whores in brothals, we have whores in clubs. In our current society, men seem to alue women, as women, as wives and mothers and single women living a chaste life very little. In the past when prostittion was tolerated virtually everywhere men valued women who were not prostitutes more than they do now. Because in many cases men now see all women as simply objects to satisfy thier sexula desire. In societies where prostitution was legal, this does not seem to be the case, at least notto the extent they are today.

I think this is becuase it created a group of women who were by the nature of thier profession objectified, thus women not of that profession were more respected, in our current culture all women are objectified and none are respected.[/quote]

I don't think there's any reason to believe that was [i]because[/i] prostitution was tolerated everywhere. Rather I think that the failure of, yes, both sexes, to respect the other is because it's something you see now constantly, and its been more or less accepted. It's on TV, in music, in the grocery store, in schools, etc. Aquinas' and Augustine may have had common prostitution, but they did not have sexuality being attacked from all those other angles as well, at least to the degree it is now, which is why there would naturally be an more sexual exploitation. You have to weigh ALL the factors that affect the degradation of sexuality, not just the phenomena of prostitution.

And also, Aquinas and Augustine were talking about tolerating prostitution when it was ALREADY legal. It's one thing to tolerate something that is evil and illegal, and quite another to say that we should legalize something evil that is already illegal.

[quote]I would point out that women seem to equally objectify men, there is no reason that we should assume there would not mbe a good number of women visiting male prostitutes.[/quote]

I never said otherwise.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='zunshynn' post='1911660' date='Jul 5 2009, 12:59 PM']Thank you for pointing that out. However, that doesn't change the fact that even if a man and woman are using each other sexually for a place to stay, or dinner, or whatever, it's still not a business transaction. He's not hiring her. [color="#FF0000"]And that kind of "bartering" is not very common anyway[/color]. As I've said before, if men want to have sex with their girlfriends or vice versa, they will. Whether or not prostitution is legal will not change that.
[color="#2E8B57"]
Are you really that naive? That kind of bartering is extraordinarly common . The number of people with "roommates" who have "benifits" but no real romantic feelings is so common that I would say it is, the norm. I can think of multiple peole off the top of my head who are in a basically bartering situation where the man is supporting the women (and her children in one case) for no other reason than he gets to sleep with her. It is such a common arrangment it is frightening. I have particulalry seen it in young people, who seemto think sex is really just no big deal at all.
[/color]


Yes there would be more trafficking. Statistics show that when laws against prostitution are relaxed, illegal prostitution also goes up.

[color="#2E8B57"]I keep hearing this, but I have yet to see these statistics froma reliable source. Australia certianly did not bear that out.[/color]

In Amsterdam, where prostitution is very legal, 1 out of 35 women is a prostitute. The Netherlands also has a very heavy trafficking market, especially for women and children from other countries, particularly from Asia and Eastern Europem where prostitution is illegal in name, but not enforced by any stretch of the imagination, like Thailand, Albania, Bulgaria, China, and Hungary, to name just a few. 80% of the prostitutes in the Netherlands are foreigners, most without documentation, which is likely to mean they were trafficked. Trafficking has tripled there in the last 20 years.

[color="#2E8B57"]and howmany of these women are willing participants. According to Australia the largest group of trafficed women come knowing they will work in the sex industry. THat is not a good thing but it does not seem to be addressed. [/color]


With the legalization of prostitution in the Netherlands there also came other strange laws, like allowing mental patients to go to prostitutes for reduced rates for "therapy".
[color="#2E8B57"]Well this doesn't suprise me, the duch have been morally bankrupt for 400 years[/color]

Prostitutes are also able to write off their clothes and trips to the hairstylist as business costs.

[color="#2E8B57"]Okay, so what? most people can deduct there expenses for buisness, I know lots of people who deduct thier boots and such. This just makes since and is certianly no arguement agianst it.[/color]

Because of this, and because of violence related to prostitution, the Netherlands and Germany are considering changing their laws.
[color="#2E8B57"]Interesting,i'll research this.[/color]
. Australia has had similar problems.
[color="#2E8B57"]Not according to her parliment.[/color]
[url="http://www.uri.edu/artsci/wms/hughes/netherl.htm"]Trafficking in the Netherlands[/url]

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_the_Netherlands"]Prostitution in the Netherlands[/url]

Nevada has also found that even when prostitution is legal, illegal forms of prostitution also have gone up.

[color="#2E8B57"]Okay you really need to research your sources better, this is an impossible statistic, it cannot be measured, because prostitution has never been illegal in Nevada. [/color]

One study has shown that 81% of Nevada prostitutes want out of the business.
[color="#2E8B57"]
50% of teachers wwant out of teaching and quite with in 5 years. Does that mean teaching should be illegal?[/color]

And almost all were raped as children before getting into prostitution.
[color="#2E8B57"]
I am not sure I really buy that, but lets say that were true, it is obviously horrible, and by the way, I also support public execution for child rapist, but it has no bearing on the discussion. It is a standard propoganda technique to through in random horrid things to colour a discussion, it is like extreme loaded language. but whether or not these women were indeed raped as children has no bearing on whether or not their current actios should be legal. [/color]

In the process of the counties of Nevada licensing brothels, the state usually does not break even.
[color="#2E8B57"]Okay, then the state would have to charge more, also does that include the revenue they recieve from property and sales taxes..... I doubt it.[/color]


It has also negatively affected the housing market, and brought up cases of tax evasion.

[color="#2E8B57"]How could it have effected the housing market when it has always been legal? or do you mean individual brothels do? THis is possible but not an arguement, black people moving in negativly effects the housing market, you don't support segragation to protect housing values do you?[/color]

You might bring up the fact that many countries where prostitution is illegal still have very heavy trafficking, including of children... however, [color="#FF0000"]none[/color] of those countries enforce their laws. Some even have instances where police work at brothels, even though it's illegal. In cases where prostitution is illegal, and enforced, such as Sweden, the rates have dramatically decreased.


Really, none of them? How aboutthe US? We have a trafficing problem, are you saying we do not enforce our laws?

[url="http://www.nevadacoalition.org/factsheets/LegliznFactSheet091707c.pdf"]Prostitution in Nevada[/url][/quote]

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='zunshynn' post='1911686' date='Jul 5 2009, 01:24 PM']I don't think there's any reason to believe that was [i]because[/i] prostitution was tolerated everywhere. Rather I think that the failure of, yes, both sexes, to respect the other is because it's something you see now constantly, and its been more or less accepted. It's on TV, in music, in the grocery store, in schools, etc. Aquinas' and Augustine may have had common prostitution, but they did not have sexuality being attacked from all those other angles as well, at least to the degree it is now, which is why there would naturally be an more sexual exploitation. You have to weigh ALL the factors that affect the degradation of sexuality, not just the phenomena of prostitution.

[color="#2E8B57"]I think these changes are related.[/color]

And also, Aquinas and Augustine were talking about tolerating prostitution when it was ALREADY legal. It's one thing to tolerate something that is evil and illegal, and quite another to say that we should legalize something evil that is already illegal.

[color="#2E8B57"]Now this is a good point. I agree they are not the same thing at all, and something that should be considered. but it was legal in the past and made illegal.[/color]

[color="#2E8B57"]Do you think that fornication should be criminalized?[/color]

I never said otherwise.


[color="#2E8B57"]Oh I know, I just thought it was important to bring up since all of this discussion has assumed men using women as objects and notthe reverse.[/color][/quote]

[zunshynn]

You're being pretty rude to me and everyone else who disagrees with you, so I'm not going to continue spending time on this thread, as its not going anywhere. I've spent a lot of time researching this, and so far you have not provided any sources to back up what you're saying, other than that you don't think its logical. Logical or not, the statistics we've presented suggest otherwise and I don't know on what grounds you discredit all of these organizations that are working against human trafficking as unreliable. They look pretty reliable to me.

And just for the record my reason for "throwing out all those horrid facts" was simply to point out that there are major injustices, and false pretenses involved in prostitution that would make its legalization unreasonable.

Anyway, I did want to point out, for anyone who is interested, that this [url="http://www.uri.edu/artsci/wms/hughes/factbook.htm"]Factbook on Global Sexual Exploitation[/url] has a lot of good information on the subject of trafficking overall, about most places in the world.

I apologize if I was rude at all to you, or anyone else.
[i]
*edited for charity and clarity's sake*[/i]

Edited July 5, 2009 by zunshynn

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1910903' date='Jul 4 2009, 07:23 PM']St. Thomas Aquinas taught that "[T]hose who are in authority, rightly tolerate certain evils, lest certain goods be lost, or certain greater evils be incurred." (St. Thomas Aquinas: Summa Theologiæ II-II, Q. 10, Art. 11)[/quote]


Gosh, I love that quote! In other words, the mere act of State involvement tends to bring unexpected negative consequences. Many times it is best for the State to not rule one way or the other on a matter. Milton Friedman would agree with Aquinas on that.

Edited July 5, 2009 by Lounge Daddy

[Winchester]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1911655' date='Jul 5 2009, 12:55 PM']So does walmart.


But regardless, wings and more has better wings and doesn't objectify anyone except maybe chickens.

Chicken wings, soaked in hot sauce, are delicious.[/quote]
It's more blatant at hooters and the women are present and placed within reach.

[thessalonian]

Augustine and Aquinas are not infallible and are in error here. Prostitution degrades women, causes families to separate, leaving children in fatherless homes. It should never be legal.

[thessalonian]

We do not create greater goods by tolerating evils. The evils will occur whether we tolerate them or not. Paul says "must we sin that grace abound? God forbid.". God hates sin. His allowing it is in that he allows our free will. The good that occurs is when the evil leaves us fealing so wounded and broken that we cry out to him and when he brings us back we have greater love for him. That is the message of the story of simon the pharasee in Luke 7. We don't need to be lenient on sin for this to happen. It will anyway because man is so week when not in Christ and in deep need of a savior.

[Maggyie]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1911631' date='Jul 5 2009, 01:42 PM']Agian, I challenge you to find an enslaved women in a Nevada brothel.[/quote]

I once encountered a girl who had been employed in the Nevada prostitution system. Their food, clothing and shelter were provided by their employers - for a cost. The women then had to work a certain amount to pay the house back for the housing and food etc. As they worked to pay off one week's worth of shelter, they would be incurring new debts for meals and housing. And so on and so forth. The system was set up so they always owed more and had to stay to try to clear the debt. It was almost impossible for her to save enough money to pay off her employers and leave (she did eventually escape). So I suppose you could say it was less like slavery and more like indentured servitude.

I would invite anyone who thinks legalization of prostitution is consistent with modern Catholic social teaching to start a legalization movement in a city like, say, Chicago, and see how fast Cardinal George explains to all the faithful where exactly the Church stands on this.

Edited July 31, 2009 by Maggie

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1935971' date='Jul 30 2009, 10:47 PM']I once encountered a girl who had been employed in the Nevada prostitution system. Their food, clothing and shelter were provided by their employers - for a cost. The women then had to work a certain amount to pay the house back for the housing and food etc. As they worked to pay off one week's worth of shelter, they would be incurring new debts for meals and housing. And so on and so forth. The system was set up so they always owed more and had to stay to try to clear the debt. It was almost impossible for her to save enough money to pay off her employers and leave (she did eventually escape). So I suppose you could say it was less like slavery and more like indentured servitude.[/quote]
How old was this women? Was this before world war 2 because since that time I know for sure that one can leave ones debts. There are no company towns anymore, nor company brothels, not where on cannot leave. preventing someone from leaving is unlawful detainment and possibly kidnapping, forcing someone to work, even for money they oe you, is involantary servitude, forcing them to have sex is rape.

Forgive me but I don't buy it. I have no doubt that you met a women who told you this. Nor do i doubt there are arrangements where the room and such are charged to the prostitute. But I do not belive that they were restricted from leaving in a [i]legal [/i] Brothel.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote]I would invite anyone who thinks legalization of prostitution is consistent with modern Catholic social teaching to start a legalization movement in a city like, say, Chicago, and see how fast Cardinal George explains to all the faithful where exactly the Church stands on this.[/quote]


Not to be overly critical of his Eminence but he cannot even seem to explain to his own priest how the Church stands on things. Witness Father Michael Pfleger.

[Maggyie]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1936400' date='Jul 31 2009, 05:15 AM']How old was this women? Was this before world war 2 because since that time I know for sure that one can leave ones debts. There are no company towns anymore, nor company brothels, not where on cannot leave. preventing someone from leaving is unlawful detainment and possibly kidnapping, forcing someone to work, even for money they oe you, is involantary servitude, forcing them to have sex is rape.

Forgive me but I don't buy it. I have no doubt that you met a women who told you this. Nor do i doubt there are arrangements where the room and such are charged to the prostitute. But I do not belive that they were restricted from leaving in a [i]legal [/i] Brothel.[/quote]


[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1936402' date='Jul 31 2009, 05:29 AM']Not to be overly critical of his Eminence but he cannot even seem to explain to his own priest how the Church stands on things. Witness Father Michael Pfleger.[/quote]

This was a woman in her early 30s. Interestingly she was not against prostitution per se, which is why she went to the brothels in the first place, but the conditions of employment were so horrible that she no longer feels it should be legalized. To be clear she was not PHYSICALLY prevented from leaving the brothel but the debts that all of the women acquired effectively chained them there. These women do not have anywhere to go if they were to leave, no one to go to for help
(they are almost universally permanently estranged from their families), no way of getting a job, as "whore" does not look good on a resume.

To a woman in these circumstances it is easier to stay where you are, with food, shelter, and a profession, than to strike out on your own with debts coming due. They are usually told that the reason they are not making more money is that they are not working hard enough, they are not servicing enough men per evening, they need to work faster or slower or better etc. Of course even in a LEGAL brothel the people who choose to run them are not the most scrupulous people when it comes to obeying the law, and there was not an HR department or something to go to where worker's rights could be explained. And so there is this illusion held out that if they just try a little more they will begin to come out ahead. Eventually the young woman I met realized the circles she was running in and left, again wth no plan in mind where to go or what to do, but she found her way.

This is the situation also of registered prostitutes who test positive for STDs (by law Nevada brothels have to test their women on a continual basis). If you test positive you are fired (or at least that's how it was in that lady's brothel).

W/ regard to your other comment, yes Cardinal George has challenges as do all bishops; you may not agree with the way he has handled Father Pfleger, but that does not mitigate his authority to instruct the faithful on the authentic application of Catholic Social Teaching, or his people's obligation to receive his teaching. Leaving aside Cardinal George, go to ANY diocese you choose from sea to shining sea and try a legalization campaign, the Catholic Church will oppose it every step of the way. In New York, in Cleveland, in Omaha, in San Antonio, in LA. An interesting experiment would be to ask the ordinary in Las Vegas what he thinks about legal prostitution. I would bet anything he's against it. Is there any doubt on that score?

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1936480' date='Jul 31 2009, 09:20 AM']This was a woman in her early 30s. Interestingly she was not against prostitution per se, which is why she went to the brothels in the first place, but the conditions of employment were so horrible that she no longer feels it should be legalized. To be clear she was not PHYSICALLY prevented from leaving the brothel but the debts that all of the women acquired effectively chained them there. These women do not have anywhere to go if they were to leave, no one to go to for help
(they are almost universally permanently estranged from their families), no way of getting a job, as "whore" does not look good on a resume.

To a woman in these circumstances it is easier to stay where you are, with food, shelter, and a profession, than to strike out on your own with debts coming due. They are usually told that the reason they are not making more money is that they are not working hard enough, they are not servicing enough men per evening, they need to work faster or slower or better etc. Of course even in a LEGAL brothel the people who choose to run them are not the most scrupulous people when it comes to obeying the law, and there was not an HR department or something to go to where worker's rights could be explained. And so there is this illusion held out that if they just try a little more they will begin to come out ahead. Eventually the young woman I met realized the circles she was running in and left, again wth no plan in mind where to go or what to do, but she found her way.[/quote]

This is a far cry from indentured servitude. I think that you said it best.... it is easier for these women to stay than to go. Sin is usually easy, if being rightous was easy the world would be full of Saints. Many many peice work jobs are like this such an arrangement is immoral, even if it was making shirts such an arrangement would be immoral, but I am not sure it should be illegal.
[quote]This is the situation also of registered prostitutes who test positive for STDs (by law Nevada brothels have to test their women on a continual basis). If you test positive you are fired (or at least that's how it was in that lady's brothel).[/quote]
I don't see how this is a negative, the reduction in the spread of disease is good. I onder why the discovery of germs made the idea that pestilance was evil simply vanish. Someone with a contagous disease is not evil but contagous disease is an evil which should be fought.


[quote name='Maggie' post='1936480' date='Jul 31 2009, 09:20 AM']W/ regard to your other comment, yes Cardinal George has challenges as do all bishops; you may not agree with the way he has handled Father Pfleger, but that does not mitigate his authority to instruct the faithful on the authentic application of Catholic Social Teaching, or his people's obligation to receive his teaching. Leaving aside Cardinal George, go to ANY diocese you choose from sea to shining sea and try a legalization campaign, the Catholic Church will oppose it every step of the way. In New York, in Cleveland, in Omaha, in San Antonio, in LA. An interesting experiment would be to ask the ordinary in Las Vegas what he thinks about legal prostitution. I would bet anything he's against it. Is there any doubt on that score?[/quote]
Pfleger advocated the murder of a gunstore owner, I am willing to bet if a priest advocated the murder of an abortion doctor he would be seriously censored, Pfleger has not been, I do think that tells me quite a bit about his Eminence. Still, of course he has the authority, but it is not his authority that I question, it is his ability to instruct the faithful since he cannot even instruct his own priest.

Regardless it is niether here nor there, the question is not weather or not it is immoral, we all agree that it is, but should the state punish that immorality.

[Maggyie]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1937768' date='Aug 1 2009, 05:12 AM']This is a far cry from indentured servitude. I think that you said it best.... it is easier for these women to stay than to go. Sin is usually easy, if being rightous was easy the world would be full of Saints. Many many peice work jobs are like this such an arrangement is immoral, even if it was making shirts such an arrangement would be immoral, but I am not sure it should be illegal.[/quote]

The women stay at the whorehouses not because "sin is usually easy," they are there because as far as they know they have no other options. While staying is wrong, I think it falls under the same category as a hungry person who has no other way to eat stealing bread. Most prostitutes do not do what they do because they enjoy it or because the sex is a temptation for them. They are where they are because others (in this case including the state) have decided to use them and have created conditions to continue the cycle of using.

The greatest part of the sin falls on the state of Nevada which has "legalized" human exploitation (as though such a thing could ever be truly legal) and directly profits from profound injustice.


[quote]Pfleger advocated the murder of a gunstore owner, I am willing to bet if a priest advocated the murder of an abortion doctor he would be seriously censored, Pfleger has not been, I do think that tells me quite a bit about his Eminence. Still, of course he has the authority, but it is not his authority that I question, it is his ability to instruct the faithful since he cannot even instruct his own priest.

Regardless it is niether here nor there, the question is not weather or not it is immoral, we all agree that it is, but should the state punish that immorality.[/quote]

I make it a practice to never try to second-guess the actions of bishops because as laymen we do not know the whole story. We have no idea what kind of censure or punishment Fr. Pfleger has come under as a result of his big mouth and in any case the Cardinal probably has other higher concerns, such as preventing a schism in the case. You are correct that this is neither here nor there, the reality is that the U.S. Bishops would absolutely oppose a movement to legalize prostitution, just as much as the Holy Father would speak out against attempts to legalize prostitution in Italy. AGAIN, if anyone starts a legalization campaign, this element of Catholic teaching will be quickly clarified for you by the local bishop. Augustine and Aquinas are great doctors, but our Faith depends on the teaching of our bishops and NOT on the hypotheses of any theologian, no matter how learned or holy. Aquinas would be the first to admit this.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1937913' date='Aug 1 2009, 10:05 AM']You are correct that this is neither here nor there, the reality is that the U.S. Bishops would absolutely oppose a movement to legalize prostitution[/quote]

Are you so sure about that?


ROMAN CATHOLIC BISHOP SUPPORTS THE WI'S CAMPAIGN TO LEGALISE BROTHELS

A Roman Catholic bishop is backing a campaign to legalise brothels after the Women's Institute announced that it supports the licensing of them.

The Right Reverend Crispian Hollis, from Portsmouth, Hampshire, has voiced his support for the local branch of the Women's Institute which wants to legalise brothels.

He said: "If you are going to take a pragmatic view and say prostitution happens, I think there is a need to make sure it's as well regulated as possible for the health of people involved and for the safety of the ladies themselves."

"That's not to say I approve of prostitution in any way. I would be very much happier if there was no prostitution in Portsmouth.

"But it's going to be there whatever we do and it has been from time immemorial. So I think that is something we have to be realistic about."

His comments won praise from Rachel Frost, from the International Union for Sex Workers.

"The bishop should be commended for having the guts to come out and say that," she said.

[size=1](Warning: There is a picture of a picture of a woman wearing very short shorts at the link to the article. Do not click on it if you would be tempted by such a picture.)[/size]

[url="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-492459/Roman-Catholic-bishop-supports-WIs-campaign-legalise-brothels.html;jsessionid=84822C2B30443F2BE77F084FDE736863"]http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-49...77F084FDE736863[/url]

Edited August 1, 2009 by Resurrexi