New Prostitution Poll

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1908644' date='Jul 2 2009, 10:11 PM']In this case, what you see as 'better for society' has dangerous theological/moral underpinnings that devalue the more vulnerable (yes, prostitutes are among the most vulnerable) segments of our population.
I don't think such a train of thought is better for society by any means.[/quote]

I am agreeing with St. Augustine (and St. Thomas who quotes him). I do not think that either are infallible on this particular issue, but the thought that 'If you do away with harlots, the world will be convulsed with lust' was deeply influential in Medieval European law. There were likely even canonized rulers who tolerated prostitution in their territories.

[Nihil Obstat]

At worst they were wrong. At best I would say that times have changed significantly enough that it can no longer be tolerated under any circumstances.

[Resurrexi]

In what ways do you feel that times have changed so that prostitution cannot be tolerated by the government?

Edited July 3, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1908688' date='Jul 2 2009, 10:29 PM']In what ways do you feel that times have changed so that prostitution cannot be tolerated by the government?[/quote]
That's more of a loophole for St. Aquinas and St. Augustine. I don't know enough to talk about that, but I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt.

[kafka]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1908691' date='Jul 2 2009, 11:30 PM']That's more of a loophole for St. Aquinas and St. Augustine. I don't know enough to talk about that, but I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt.[/quote]
I thought that was a poor example used by Aquinas, and the Augustine quote is logically unsound (as I already showed), although he may have been exaggerating or perhaps it is relevant in a different.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='kafka' post='1908728' date='Jul 2 2009, 10:45 PM']I thought that was a poor example used by Aquinas, and the Augustine quote is logically unsound (as I already showed), although he may have been exaggerating or perhaps it is relevant in a different.[/quote]

I think the point that St. Augustine was trying to make is that prostitution controls sexual immorality in a sense. If men can seek immorality among the prostitutes, then they will not seek it elsewhere as often. Rather than having all levels of society infected with sexual immorality, mainly the prostitutes are infected.

Edited July 3, 2009 by Resurrexi

[CatherineM]

Legalized prostitution doesn't cut down on the drug use of prostitutes. They use the drugs to be able to live with the horror their lives have become. My nephew David was a prostitute. He was stabbed to death in Tulsa on Halloween 1994 by a John. I wish he had been in jail instead.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1908743' date='Jul 2 2009, 10:56 PM']Legalized prostitution doesn't cut down on the drug use of prostitutes. They use the drugs to be able to live with the horror their lives have become. My nephew David was a prostitute. He was stabbed to death in Tulsa on Halloween 1994 by a John. I wish he had been in jail instead.[/quote]

I'm so sorry.

May he rest in peace.

Edited July 3, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Don John of Austria]

First let me say I am not sure if I think that prostitution should be legal nor am I sure it should be illegal.

I do not think that the state should criminalize fornication, for that matter I do not think the state should criminalize adultry ( though not very long ago it wwas indeed criminalized in many places.) THis is not because I do not believe these things are wrong, but, frankly, becuase the state should have little place in the private life of its subjects/citizens.

Is prostitution evil, yes.

Is it more evil than regular fornication probably not. While prostitution turns sex, which should be sacred, into a commodity, which is indeed vile, it has the virtue of being honest, everyone is on the same page.

Fornication is rampant in our current culture. But very often the quest for sex leads to dishonest behavior on the part of both genders. More often than not, the involved are not on the same page.

I think that there is no doubt that the end of legalized prostitution would convulse society with lust, that is indeed what happened when we ended it. 120 years ago prostitution was common, and the general order of society was not a seething mass of lustful imagery. Now it is. Correlation does not proves causation, but it is still powerful evidence.

What evils would be eliminated by legalizeing prostituion, slavery, abuse, the spread of disease. All could be significantly reduced if women had to be licensed by the government, swear under oath that they were willing, take a drug test ( at least while making the oath, and submit to STD test once a month. If brothals were routinely inspected by the government and in general prostitution was an acceptable industry then sex slavery, and the spread of disease could both be reduced.

Do these things equal the evil of turning sex into a commodity? Well I am not sure.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1908740' date='Jul 2 2009, 11:55 PM']I think the point that St. Augustine was trying to make is that prostitution controls sexual immorality in a sense. If men can seek immorality among the prostitutes, then they will not seek it elsewhere as often. Rather than having all levels of society infected with sexual immorality, mainly the prostitutes are infected.[/quote]


Well I also think, as distasteful as this is, that in a society where there prostitution is legal and safe and more or less accepted men are more likely to [i]value[/i] a women who is pure because he can satisfy his baser desires with a prostitute who is obviously impure. As that aspect of society has changed men have come more and more to simply not value women at all, to only value sex with women.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1908740' date='Jul 2 2009, 11:55 PM']I think the point that St. Augustine was trying to make is that prostitution controls sexual immorality in a sense. If men can seek immorality among the prostitutes, then they will not seek it elsewhere as often. Rather than having all levels of society infected with sexual immorality, mainly the prostitutes are infected.[/quote]


Well I also think, as distasteful as this is, that in a society where there prostitution is legal and safe and more or less accepted men are more likely to [i]value[/i] a women who is pure because he can satisfy his baser desires with a prostitute who is obviously impure. As that aspect of society has changed men have come more and more to simply not value women at all, to only value sex with women.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1908567' date='Jul 2 2009, 10:04 PM']There are actually many goods that could come from the legalization of prostitution.

If prostitution were legalized, it would be easier for men to avoid sinning with honorable women.

Also, more women might remain virgins before they married.

Prostitutes might be able to avoid drugs and violence, and the condition of their life might improve if prostitution were not associated with illegal activity.[/quote]



[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1908740' date='Jul 2 2009, 11:55 PM']I think the point that St. Augustine was trying to make is that prostitution controls sexual immorality in a sense. If men can seek immorality among the prostitutes, then they will not seek it elsewhere as often. Rather than having all levels of society infected with sexual immorality, mainly the prostitutes are infected.[/quote]

Res,

I think you need to change your screenname to Marianna Trench, because this is the deepest I've seen anyone go off the deep end in some time.

First, while I'm all for women remaining virgins until they arer married, what about the men? There should not be a double standard. They should not be sinning with either honorable OR dishonorable women.

Second, I remember someone posting an article here about brothels in Nevada, the only place in the USA where prostitution is legal. For health reasons, the prostitutes basically are under house arrest for fear of them getting infection, which is a perfect segway into my third point.

Third, you talk about
[quote]Rather than having all levels of society infected with sexual immorality, mainly the prostitutes are infected[/quote]

What about the male customers of the prostitutes? Are they not infected with sexual immorality?

And speaking of infections, do you realize that the AIDS crisis in southern Africa is the result of men working away from home utilizing prostitutes and catching AIDS from them and then going back home to infect their wives?

Edited July 3, 2009 by Norseman82

[philothea]

(Read about this a few years back. Haven't paid attention to the situation to know if it's been changed.)

In Germany, I believe, prostitution is legal.

In most industrialized countries, including Germany, in order to be eligible for unemployment payments, an applicant has to show that they've been applying for jobs and been passed over.

Not surprisingly, the bordellos in Germany have a hard time getting enough prostitutes. It's not exactly a dream job. But, once it was legal, women who lost their jobs also had to apply to be prostitutes. Which, of course, they were accepted for...

These were well-educated women, often married and/or with children. Making something very unsavory and unethical legal can have all kinds of unanticipated ramifications.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='philothea' post='1908794' date='Jul 3 2009, 12:23 AM'](Read about this a few years back. Haven't paid attention to the situation to know if it's been changed.)

In Germany, I believe, prostitution is legal.

In most industrialized countries, including Germany, in order to be eligible for unemployment payments, an applicant has to show that they've been applying for jobs and been passed over.

Not surprisingly, the bordellos in Germany have a hard time getting enough prostitutes. It's not exactly a dream job. But, once it was legal, women who lost their jobs also had to apply to be prostitutes. Which, of course, they were accepted for...

These were well-educated women, often married and/or with children. Making something very unsavory and unethical legal can have all kinds of unanticipated ramifications. [/quote]


Well this is a bit of an exageration, but yes some women in parts of Germany were denied unemployment because there were jobs available, namly being a prostitute. But last I heard there were only a few cases in one region of germany, and the women did not become prostitutes they just didn't recieve unemployment. Obviously that is atrocious, but is it wose then what so many women ion our country do, they find a man to shack up with and live off him, until he tires of her or she finds a better guy. Isn't she just prostituting herself for a place to live?

Edited July 3, 2009 by Don John of Austria

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1908782' date='Jul 2 2009, 11:17 PM']What about the male customers of the prostitutes? Are they not infected with sexual immorality?[/quote]

The men are certainly infected with sexual immorality. From my observation (and apparently from St. Augustine's) that is not exactly controllable.

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1908782' date='Jul 2 2009, 11:17 PM']And speaking of infections, do you realize that the AIDS crisis in southern Africa is the result of men working away from home utilizing prostitutes and catching AIDS from them and then going back home to infect their wives?[/quote]

Are there regularly scheduled venereal disease tests for prostitutes in Africa?

Edited July 3, 2009 by Resurrexi