Obama Champions Gay Rights

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='Kitty' post='1908311' date='Jul 2 2009, 02:44 PM']You do realize that millions of heterosexual couples have this type of sex, right?[/quote]
I mentioned this earlier. There was no response.

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1908321' date='Jul 2 2009, 02:53 PM']I compared sodomy to murder earlier...[/quote]

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='hugheyforlife' post='1908322' date='Jul 2 2009, 02:56 PM']I mentioned this earlier. There was no response.[/quote]

Sodomy between a male and a female is seriously wrong and disordered, too.

[CatherineM]

I was born with a disordered passion. God made me this way, and many of my relatives. I like to eat. I have often eaten to excess in the past to the point it endangered my health. It has taken a lot of determination and will power to overcome. Those born with SSA were also born with disorder passions. It's not for us to know why each of us is given the particular crosses we have been, it is up to us to live our lives the best way that we can with those crosses. Some are much heavier than others. There are those born with the inclination to addiction, to gambling, to wanting to have sex with bizarre animals, but that doesn't mean we have to act on those inclinations. There was a time I was very angry and wanted to pummel everyone I met. My rights weren't being trampled on because I wasn't allowed to beat people up, rather the rights of everyone else to an ordered society were being protected.

[Kitty]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1908325' date='Jul 2 2009, 03:57 PM']Sodomy between a male and a female is seriously wrong and disordered, too.[/quote]

So then according to this "disordered" logic, all heterosexual couples that are to be wed should be screened and interviewed so that we are absolutely certain that they will only have "natural" sex. Also, cameras should be installed in every bedroom in America to make sure they have kept their word. If they practice sodomy, they should be arrested promptly.

Ah, the land of the free.

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1908325' date='Jul 2 2009, 02:57 PM']Sodomy between a male and a female is seriously wrong and disordered, too.[/quote]
What if we're not talking about sodomy? What determines sodomy anyway?

sodomy |ˈsädəmē|
noun
sexual intercourse involving anal or oral copulation.


copulate |ˈkäpyəˌlāt|
verb [ intrans. ]
have sexual intercourse.

DERIVATIVES
copulation |ˌkäpyəˈlā sh ən| |ˈkɑpjəˈleɪʃən| |ˈkoʊpjəˈleɪʃən| noun
copulatory |-ləˌtôrē| |ˈkɑpjələˈtɔri| |ˈkoʊpjələˈtɔri| adjective

ORIGIN late Middle English (in the sense [join] ): from Latin copulat- ‘fastened together,’ from the verb copulare, from copula (see copula ).


if that's what we're talking about, then we're talking about one specific act of sexual intercourse which happens with both two people of the same sex as well as two people of opposite sex.

as a separate question: have not members of phatmass said before that anal and oral sex is appropriate/acceptable within a marriage so long as it "ends" in the ... well, you know.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='hugheyforlife' post='1908314' date='Jul 2 2009, 01:46 PM']So why are people homosexual?[/quote]
Come now, as a Catholic you know the answer to that question. How did the disordered passions that afflict humanity, and which if acted upon lead to evil and sin, enter into the world?

[quote name='hugheyforlife' post='1908314' date='Jul 2 2009, 01:46 PM']Are you suggesting that they choose to be, that they are not naturally born this way?[/quote]
Disordered desires (concupiscence) entered into the world through the ancestral sin of Adam and Eve, but you already should know that because you are a Catholic.

[quote name='hugheyforlife' post='1908314' date='Jul 2 2009, 01:46 PM']How could God create humans with this natural drive and you say He did not intend for them to be created that way?[/quote]
The homosexual inclination is not natural; instead, it is unnatural, and that is why God is not its cause. Our first parents are the cause of the disorders that afflict humanity.

[quote name='hugheyforlife' post='1908314' date='Jul 2 2009, 01:46 PM']Homosexuality has been around for a looooooong time.[/quote]
Adultery and abortion (and other evil acts) have been around a long time too, but I certainly do not want the civil authorities to pass laws encouraging those evil practices. Civil "laws" that promote behavior that is contrary to the natural moral law are abuses, and no one can in good conscience obey such enactments (cf. Pope John Paul II, [i]Evangelium Vitae[/i], no. 72).

[quote name='hugheyforlife' post='1908314' date='Jul 2 2009, 01:46 PM']It's hard to believe that for all that time people were simply choosing to be gay.[/quote]
People can either choose to act upon their disordered desires or not. Hopefully a person will choose to be virtuous, and will thus choose to emulate Christ, who is the exemplar of redeemed humanity, that is, of humanity as God always intended it to be (i.e., divinized through grace and virtue).

[quote name='hugheyforlife' post='1908314' date='Jul 2 2009, 01:46 PM']I'm sorry. I'm dense. What do you mean by positive existing reality?[/quote]
Disorders of the passions, like the sins that flow from them when a man acts upon them, do not exist essentially, that is, they are not natural to man, but are instead unnatural (i.e., contrary to the good of man's nature as it was created by God).

[quote name='hugheyforlife' post='1908314' date='Jul 2 2009, 01:46 PM']Is it not possible that one side of this deal feels they are objective when in reality they are not?[/quote]
Well, clearly one side in this debate is wrong. I will hold with the Church, which was instituted by Christ in order to free man from slavery to the disordered desires that afflict his mind by restoring humanity to virtue through the grace of the sacraments (mysteries).

Edited July 2, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='hugheyforlife' post='1908331' date='Jul 2 2009, 02:01 PM']as a separate question: have not members of phatmass said before that anal and oral sex is appropriate/acceptable within a marriage so long as it "ends" in the ... well, you know.[/quote]
Yes, some Phatmassers have asserted this, even though they have provided no evidence to support this contention from the writings of the Holy Fathers.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Kitty' post='1908330' date='Jul 2 2009, 03:01 PM']So then according to this "disordered" logic, all heterosexual couples that are to be wed should be screened and interviewed so that we are absolutely certain that they will only have "natural" sex. Also, cameras should be installed in every bedroom in America to make sure they have kept their word. If they practice sodomy, they should be arrested promptly.

Ah, the land of the free. [/quote]

I am fairly certain that those who have Catholic weddings are told not to commit sodomy in their marriage preparation.

Also, some states do have sodomy laws. It is too bad that they are not usually enforced.

[quote name='hugheyforlife' post='1908331' date='Jul 2 2009, 03:01 PM']as a separate question: have not members of phatmass said before that anal and oral sex is appropriate/acceptable within a marriage so long as it "ends" in the ... well, you know.[/quote]

Christopher West claimed so. Several members strongly disagreed with him. I disagree with him too.

[dominicansoul]

according to this thread,

it looks like Obama ain't the only one championing gay rights. To be honest, I'm a little surprised that a regulator on a Catholic Forum would be championing gay rights....

things that make me go hmmmmm.....

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='dominicansoul' post='1908337' date='Jul 2 2009, 02:06 PM']according to this thread,

it looks like Obama ain't the only one championing gay rights. To be honest, I'm a little surprised that a regulator on a Catholic Forum would be championing gay rights....

things that make me go hmmmmm..... [/quote]
Sadly you are correct, some who purport to be Catholic support an agenda that has already been condemned (many times in recent years) by the Pope and other Church authorities.

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1908327' date='Jul 2 2009, 02:59 PM']I was born with a disordered passion. God made me this way, and many of my relatives. I like to eat. I have often eaten to excess in the past to the point it endangered my health. It has taken a lot of determination and will power to overcome. Those born with SSA were also born with disorder passions. It's not for us to know why each of us is given the particular crosses we have been, it is up to us to live our lives the best way that we can with those crosses. Some are much heavier than others. There are those born with the inclination to addiction, to gambling, to wanting to have sex with bizarre animals, but that doesn't mean we have to act on those inclinations. There was a time I was very angry and wanted to pummel everyone I met. My rights weren't being trampled on because I wasn't allowed to beat people up, rather the rights of everyone else to an ordered society were being protected.[/quote]
You stuffing your face is very different than two human beings finding a connection and falling in love. Sorry (only not really). It is.

You being angry and not being able to physically harm another is quite different than allowing a person to receive tax breaks.

Two people consenting to love is far different than death because someone can't live with themselves.

[Kitty]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1908336' date='Jul 2 2009, 04:06 PM']I am fairly certain that those who have Catholic weddings are told not to commit sodomy in their marriage preparation.[/quote]

That doesn't mean they actually follow those rules. And by the way, I think the church encouraging people who are having a Catholic wedding not to commit sodomy is fine. A line is crossed when people are FORCED to follow a religious teaching by law.


[quote]Also, some states do have sodomy laws. It is too bad that they are not usually enforced.[/quote]

That's probably because those laws are quite old and outdated. Tell me how these types of laws would be enforced. (I'd hate to be the cop that had to barge into people's bedrooms to check and make sure they're having "natural sex".)

Edited July 2, 2009 by Kitty

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1908336' date='Jul 2 2009, 03:06 PM']Also, some states do have sodomy laws. It is too bad that they are not usually enforced.[/quote]
How would you like them to enforce this more regularly?


[quote name='dominicansoul' post='1908337' date='Jul 2 2009, 03:06 PM']according to this thread,

it looks like Obama ain't the only one championing gay rights. To be honest, I'm a little surprised that a regulator on a Catholic Forum would be championing gay rights....

things that make me go hmmmmm..... [/quote]
I've said from the very beginning that I am simply playing devil's advocate here. I have not denied or disagreed publicly with anything they have presented. I am asking questions and poking at theories and ideas.

If you can't handle it, don't read it. (I think the bishops said the same thing about Harry Potter.)


[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1908338' date='Jul 2 2009, 03:08 PM']Sadly you are correct, some who purport to be Catholic support an agenda that has already been condemned (many times in recent years) by the Pope and other Church authorities.[/quote]
I have not said I support homosexual activity as moral. I am asking questions. Sheesh. (Again, said from the very beginning that I was playing devil's advocate in this since Musturde disappeared.)

I again say I have not denied or directly disapproved of anything you've said. I'm simply questioning the logic.

Consider it more of an educational banter than a profession of lack of faith.

Oh yeah and...

forgive my unpleasant disposition, dominicansoul. (Love it.)

[Apotheoun]

I referenced the following text in one of my previous posts, but I decided to post the quotation for the Catholics in this debate, so that they can examine their position and if need be revise it in order to conform their views to those of the Church. In the quotation, which is from Pope John Paul II's encyclical letter [i]Evangelium Vitae[/i], the necessary conformity of civil law to the natural moral law is reaffirmed and its connection to the Church's constant tradition is asserted:


[size=4][b]Evangelium Vitae (no. 72)[/b][/size]

[size=3]The doctrine on the necessary conformity of civil law with the moral law is in continuity with the whole tradition of the Church. This is clear once more from John XXIII's Encyclical: "Authority is a postulate of the moral order and derives from God. Consequently, laws and decrees enacted in contravention of the moral order, and hence of the divine will, can have no binding force in conscience...; indeed, the passing of such laws undermines the very nature of authority and results in shameful abuse." This is the clear teaching of Saint Thomas Aquinas, who writes that "human law is law inasmuch as it is in conformity with right reason and thus derives from the eternal law. But when a law is contrary to reason, it is called an unjust law; but in this case it ceases to be a law and becomes instead an act of violence." And again: "Every law made by man can be called a law insofar as it derives from the natural law. But if it is somehow opposed to the natural law, then it is not really a law but rather a corruption of the law."[/size]

Edited July 2, 2009 by Apotheoun