Hassan Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 [quote name='Niccolò' post='1908274' date='Jul 2 2009, 01:16 PM']I could demonstrate to you in diagrams why homosexual sex is contrary to nature and thus immoral...but I'd probably wind up banned.[/quote] In which case you would be arbitrarily adding a teleological aspect to biology. What does "contrary to nature" mean? [quote]Suffice it to say that men and women are biologically/socially/mentally crafted for each other, not for themselves.[/quote] Except those who are not. This group of individuals are commonly referred to as "homosexuals". This is all I hear from Christians when they try to provide some basis. A unjustified introduction of teleological doctrines and half hidden tautologies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franciscanheart Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 [quote name='Niccolò' post='1908274' date='Jul 2 2009, 01:16 PM']Suffice it to say that men and women are biologically/socially/mentally crafted for each other, not for themselves.[/quote] But the Church does not deny that some men and women are not built to be attracted to the opposite sex. What then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 [quote name='hugheyforlife' post='1908283' date='Jul 2 2009, 02:24 PM']But the Church does not deny that some men and women are not built to be attracted to the opposite sex. What then?[/quote] Exactly. Yes, most individuals are "wired" for the opposite sex. I couldn't ever imagine being happy in a sexual relationship with another man. Most is a subset. Some are not. He wants to move from an existential instantiation to a universal generalization. He'll have a tough time trying to find a predicate logic proof for that line of reasoning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted July 2, 2009 Author Share Posted July 2, 2009 Sure, living outside of a Catholic biblical worldview according to nominalism or some other philosophical principles in which everything is arbitrary one could rationalize anything, including a sexual relationship outside of the sacrament of marriage or driving an airplane into a skyscraper full of people you were convinced were evil. [quote]But the Church does not deny that some men and women are not built to be attracted to the opposite sex. What then?[/quote] The Church calls all women to motherhood and all men to fatherhood, even if not biologically so. God never calls men or women to be sexually attracted to someone of the same sex. It is naturally disordered to the primary procreative element of the sexual union. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 [quote name='hugheyforlife' post='1908283' date='Jul 2 2009, 12:24 PM']But the Church does not deny that some men and women are not built to be attracted to the opposite sex. What then?[/quote] The homosexual inclination is not a positive existing reality; instead, it is simply an objectively disordered desire, and like all other disorders of the passions it is to be resisted. The homosexual inclination cannot be made the basis of "rights." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1908292' date='Jul 2 2009, 01:49 PM']The homosexual inclination is not a [size=4]positive existing reality[/size]; instead, it is simply an [size=5]objectively disordered desire[/size], and like all other disorders of the passions it is to be resisted. The homosexual inclination cannot be made the basis of "rights."[/quote] ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1908295' date='Jul 2 2009, 12:54 PM']?[/quote] Disordered passions have no essential existence, but are instead privations of the good. Moreover, if one acts upon the disordered passions that afflict his mind, he commits acts of evil, because the acts in question do not bring a man to his true and natural end (i.e., beatitude through virtuous activity). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 [quote name='Brother Adam' post='1908290' date='Jul 2 2009, 01:44 PM']Sure, living outside of a Catholic biblical worldview according to nominalism or some other philosophical principles in which everything is arbitrary one could rationalize anything, including a sexual relationship outside of the sacrament of marriage or driving an airplane into a skyscraper full of people you were convinced were evil.[/quote] Driving an airplane into a skyscraper full of people you were convinced were evil. Yep, all sorts of horrible things can be rationalized outside of a biblical world view. I mean a biblical world view could never lead anyone to rationalize anything comparable as that.... wait for it....... wait for it....... ....... ................. 1 Samuel 15:2-3 (New International Version) 2 This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy [a] everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.' [quote]It is naturally disordered to the primary procreative element of the sexual union.[/quote] The whoza whatsit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1908299' date='Jul 2 2009, 02:02 PM']Disordered passions have no essential existence[/quote] How do you know they are disordered and what does it mean to have "essential existence" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Hassan' post='1908302' date='Jul 2 2009, 01:10 PM']How do you know they are disordered and what does it mean to have "essential existence"[/quote] They are disordered because the human male is ordered to finding his completion through sexual union with a human female. Anal sex, like all other perversions, is contrary to nature, in that it cannot bring about a union of love that is open to the procreation of new life, which is the primary purpose of the generative organs. Moral evil, which arises through the disordered passions that afflict the will of man, has no essential existence, but is instead a privation of the good. Only the good has essential existence. Christianity has always rejected dualism. Edited July 2, 2009 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitty Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1908304' date='Jul 2 2009, 02:16 PM']They are disordered because the human male is ordered to finding his completion through sexual union with a human female. Anal sex, like all other perversions, is contrary to nature, in that it cannot bring about a union of love that is open to the procreation of new life, which is the primary purpose of the generative organs.[/quote] You do realize that millions of heterosexual couples have this type of sex, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franciscanheart Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 [quote name='Brother Adam' post='1908290' date='Jul 2 2009, 01:44 PM']Sure, living outside of a Catholic biblical worldview according to nominalism or some other philosophical principles in which everything is arbitrary one could rationalize anything, including a sexual relationship outside of the sacrament of marriage or driving an airplane into a skyscraper full of people you were convinced were evil.[/quote] Did you just equate homosexual activity with acts of terrorism? [quote name='Brother Adam' post='1908290' date='Jul 2 2009, 01:44 PM']The Church calls all women to motherhood and all men to fatherhood, even if not biologically so. God never calls men or women to be sexually attracted to someone of the same sex. It is naturally disordered to the primary procreative element of the sexual union.[/quote] So why are people homosexual? Are you suggesting that they choose to be, that they are not naturally born this way? How could God create humans with this natural drive and you say He did not intend for them to be created that way? Homosexuality has been around for a looooooong time. It's hard to believe that for all that time people were simply choosing to be gay. [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1908292' date='Jul 2 2009, 01:49 PM']The homosexual inclination is not a positive existing reality; instead, it is simply an objectively disordered desire, and like all other disorders of the passions it is to be resisted. The homosexual inclination cannot be made the basis of "rights."[/quote] I'm sorry. I'm dense. What do you mean by positive existing reality? Is it not possible that one side of this deal feels they are objective when in reality they are not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 [quote name='Kitty' post='1908311' date='Jul 2 2009, 01:44 PM']You do realize that millions of heterosexual couples have this type of sex, right?[/quote] Yes, many people commit evil acts every day (sexual and non-sexual), but that does not mean that one should approve of those perverted activities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franciscanheart Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1908304' date='Jul 2 2009, 02:16 PM']They are disordered because the human male is ordered to finding his completion through sexual union with a human female. Anal sex, like all other perversions, is contrary to nature, in that it cannot bring about a union of love that is open to the procreation of new life, which is the primary purpose of the generative organs. Moral evil, which arises through the disordered passions that afflict the will of man, has no essential existence, but is instead a privation of the good. Only the good has essential existence. Christianity has always rejected dualism.[/quote] What about women? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 [quote name='hugheyforlife' post='1908314' date='Jul 2 2009, 02:46 PM']Did you just equate homosexual activity with acts of terrorism?[/quote] I compared sodomy to murder earlier... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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