heavenseeker Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 [quote name='OraProMe' post='1907933' date='Jul 2 2009, 02:40 AM']I can't wait till the world rips you apart, Resurrexi. Honestly it will be very good for you to realize believing something because the magisterium says so isn't good. Enjoy adulthood [/quote] to an extent i agree with you. i am not saying that we should not believe what the magisterium says on something, because we should. I do think that it isnt good to just believe something because it is the view of the magisterium though, we need to see what the magisterium says about something and then find out why they say so and then after reflecting on it with ones own personal understanding come to agree or disagree with what is held by the magisterium. because yes if we just flat out follow what is stated by the magisterium strictly for the reason that it is the view of the magistarium then we might as well be robots. God didnt make us rational creatures just so we can read and follow mindlessly (not saying thats exactly what Resurrexi does). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1906985' date='Jul 1 2009, 02:08 AM']Homosexuals have all the same rights that heterosexuals do. Homosexuals cannot civilly "marry" persons of the same sex (in most places), but neither can heterosexuals.[/quote] Christians have the same freedoms of religion as Muslims in Saudi Arabia. Like everyone else they are free to worship as a Whabbi Muslim. Something's wrong with that argument Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OraProMe Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 Hassan, that was the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 [quote name='Socrates' post='1907785' date='Jul 1 2009, 11:19 PM']Natural law is not something which can only be known by Revelation or Church authority, but can be known through natural reason. From the introduction:[/quote] Save my soul Socrates. Logically demonstrate the reality of the natural law and its content and I'll abandon this world, join a momentary, and commit to my salvation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 [quote name='OraProMe' post='1907946' date='Jul 2 2009, 02:34 AM']Hassan, that was the best.[/quote] thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heavenseeker Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1907949' date='Jul 2 2009, 03:38 AM']Save my soul Socrates. Logically demonstrate the reality of the natural law and its content and I'll abandon this world, join a momentary, and commit to my salvation.[/quote] look up Aristotle and St. Thomas Aquinas, both do a good job of proving that the natural law and even God can be found by means of logical thinking. I hhad to read the mtogeter for my ethics class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 [quote name='heavenseeker' post='1907954' date='Jul 2 2009, 02:47 AM']look up Aristotle and St. Thomas Aquinas, both do a good job of proving that the natural law and even God can be found by means of logical thinking. I hhad to read the mtogeter for my ethics class.[/quote] Both Aquinas and Aristotle had a fairly large corpus of work. Is there some particular part? I've read Aquinas' five ways, if that's what you mean by the latter part. Back in 10th grade and as a college Freshman for Phil 101. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 (edited) [quote name='musturde' post='1907938' date='Jul 2 2009, 01:08 AM']I agree. I'm still not really satisfied with many of the answers. As a true Catholic, there should be more thought to hard situations than simply "the Church says it". That's very lazy. I honestly doubt the great minds of the Church got where they did by this train of thought. Now, the problem I find is that if we think of state marriage as a mere civil contract, there should be no reason that gay people should be bereft of the benefits that come from this contract. Whether it is natural law for gays to marry is irrelevant. The lifestyle many homosexual people live in now is almost marriage without the seal. Allowing gay marriage does not promote homosexuality, it only allows certain rights for those who choose to live the lifestyle they are already living.[/quote] The civil authorities are not empowered to pass "laws" that contravene the moral norms written by God into human nature itself. A civil enactment that is contrary to the moral law, is not a true law, but is an abuse of human freedom and of a correctly formed conscience. For Catholcs, and all men of good will, the answer is clear: it is morally evil to promote same sex unions through civil enactments, for such enactments are contrary to right reason and to the truth about man that has been revealed in Christ Jesus, and that is why -- as the Church has made clear in recent years through her pronouncements in the moral sphere -- Catholics in particular must work in opposition to anything that would legitimize deviant behavior within society. Catholics are bound, as a matter of divine faith, to influence the societies in which they live with the principles of the Gospel of Christ, and to fail in this task is a sin against the truth, it is a sin against Christ the Lord Himself. I will conclude my comments by posting in its entirety a meditation written by Pope John Paul II that dealt with this topic: [center][size=4][b]Pope John Paul II - Angelus Meditation (20 February 1994)[/b][/size] [size=3][b]Legitimizing Deviant Behavior Leads to Decadence[/b][/size][/center] [size=3]We have entered Lent for 1994, the [i]Year of the Family[/i] desired by the U.N. and the Church. Among the tasks that should be highlighted this year, in both the Church and civil society, is the consolidation of the family bond and of the family's true identity. For this reason the [i]Letter to Families[/i], which will be published February 22, is first and foremost an invitation to prayer for the family and with the family. The insidious attacks on the family in modern hedonistic civilization, while despite all declarations on human rights, is essentially opposed to its true good, cannot be resisted except by prayer, fasting and mutual love. Certainly, there are many families who pray for themselves and others. In our world, vulnerable to so many moral threats, the family apostolate is providentially growing. Unfortunately, precisely in the [i]Year of this Family[/i], one notes initiatives, disseminated by a considerable part of mass media, that seem to be essentially "anti-family." They are initiatives which give priority to what causes the break-up of the family, the defeat of the human person -- man, woman or children. [i]What is really evil is called good[/i]: separation chosen for trivial reasons, marital infidelity not only tolerated but even extolled, divorce and free love sometimes presented as examples to be followed. Who needs this propaganda? Who needs is? What are its sources? "Every good tree," Jesus says, "bears good fruit, and a rotten tree bears bad fruit" (Matthew 7:17). Hence it is a question of a bad tree that humanity bears within itself, cultivating it with the help of vast financial outlays and the support of the powerful mass media. Here one's thoughts turn to the recent, well-known resolution approved by the European Parliament. It does not merely defend people with homosexual tendencies by rejecting [i]unjust[/i] discrimination in their regard. The Church agrees with that -- indeed, she supports and approves it. She does so because every human person is worthy of respect. What is not morally acceptable is the legal approval of homosexual activity. Being understanding towards the sinner who is unable to free himself from this tendency is not the same as lessening the requirement of the moral norm. Christ forgave the woman caught in adultery and saved her from being stoned, but at the same time He said to her: "You may go. But from now on, avoid this sin" (John 8:11). What I say here I say with deep sadness, for everyone has a great respect for the European Community and the European Parliament. We know the many merits of this institution, but it must be said that the Parliament's resolution seeks to legitimize a moral disorder. The Parliament has unduly institutionalized deviant kinds of behavior not in conformity with God's plan; they are weaknesses, as we know, but the Parliament has supported these weaknesses. [i]It is not recognized that the true human right is victory over oneself so as to live in conformity with a correct conscience[/i]. Without a basic awareness of the moral law, human life and human dignity are subject to decadence and ruin. Forgetting Christ's words, "the truth will set you free" (John 8:32), the attempt has been made to tell the inhabitants of this continent that moral evil, deviation, a kind of slavery, is the way to liberation, thus distorting the true meaning of the family. The relationship of two men or two women cannot constitute a true family; still less can one grant such a union the right to adopt children who lack a family. These children suffer great danger, grave harm, because in these "substitute families" they do not have a father and a mother, but two "fathers" or two "mothers." This is dangerous. We trust that the parliaments of European countries will be able to distance themselves from this position and, especially during the [i]Year of the Family[/i], will protect families of very ancient societies and nations from this fundamental danger. Without doubt, however, we are faced with a temptation, a great, terrible temptation. The First Sunday of Lent reminds us of Christ who found Himself face-to-face with man's eternal tempter and triumphed over him: a victory that foretold the paschal triumph through the cross and resurrection. Christ says to us -- to us Christians, to us all who live in Europe and the world -- that this kind of evil is only defeated by prayer and fasting. Yes, there is no other way for us to triumph over this evil, this danger, this threat. The only authorities to which we can appeal are conscience, a correct, sound conscience, and nations' sense of responsibility. They cannot allow the family to be destroyed, because the future of us all, of every nation, of all humanity -- of all Europe -- depends on it. At the beginning of Lent the Church listens again to Christ's call and accepts it as once the apostles did. Let us cease being people of little faith and seek to become people of prayer and penance! ". . . If you do not repent, you will all perish" (Luke 13:3), Christ says. These words are not said in vain; they have been confirmed many times in history. We know neither the day nor the hour (Matthew 25:13)! May Lent help us to renew our covenant with God in Christ. In Him alone is man's salvation. Let us pray to His Mother by reciting the Angelus.[/size] Edited July 2, 2009 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Hassan' post='1907956' date='Jul 2 2009, 01:51 AM']Both Aquinas and Aristotle had a fairly large corpus of work. Is there some particular part? I've read Aquinas' five ways, if that's what you mean by the latter part. Back in 10th grade and as a college Freshman for Phil 101.[/quote] The Summa Theologica is divided into subjects. Look under the heading entitled "Law." That subject is further divided into sections: General, Eternal, Natural, Human, Old and New Law. Edited July 2, 2009 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 (edited) [quote name='OraProMe' post='1907933' date='Jul 2 2009, 12:40 AM']I can't wait till the world rips you apart, Resurrexi. Honestly it will be very good for you to realize believing something because the magisterium says so isn't good. Enjoy adulthood [/quote] Such a wonderful Christian sentiment. Resurrexi and I do not agree with each other on many theological topics, but on moral issues he and I see things in the same way. Immoral activity can never be given a legally protected status by the state, and any civil enactment that tries to do just that is an abuse, and not a true law. Moreover, as an abuse, a man is required in conscience to reject its authority and must work to reverse the evil that has been imposed upon society as a pseudo-good. As Isaiah said, "Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil . . . for they have rejected the law of the LORD of hosts, and have despised the word of the Holy One of Israel." (Isaiah 5:20, 24b). Edited July 2, 2009 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 (edited) [quote name='OraProMe' post='1907933' date='Jul 2 2009, 12:40 AM']I can't wait till the world rips you apart, Resurrexi. Honestly it will be very good for you to realize believing something because the magisterium says so isn't good. Enjoy adulthood [/quote] This is most obscene. I hope that you are not saying that becoming an adult requires that one embrace the modern hedonistic attempts to legitimize deviant behavior. I am 46 years old, and I shall never accept such an ideology as good. Moreover, I believe many things simply because Christ said that it is so, e.g., I believe that God is a Trinity of persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; and that man is called to live a moral life with the assistance of God's uncreated energy, and that should he fail to do so, he will not inherit the Kingdom of God. Edited July 2, 2009 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1907960' date='Jul 2 2009, 03:12 AM']The Summa Theologica is divided into subjects. Look under the heading entitled "Law." That subject is further divided into sections: General, Eternal, Natural, Human, Old and New Law.[/quote] thank you. I've been reading about his account of cognition so this might be a good oppertunity to check out some primary material on it while there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1907960' date='Jul 2 2009, 03:12 AM']The Summa Theologica is divided into subjects. Look under the heading entitled "Law." That subject is further divided into sections: General, Eternal, Natural, Human, Old and New Law.[/quote] I remember covering those in Christian morality last semester. They are very interesting to study. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1907969' date='Jul 2 2009, 02:33 AM']I remember covering those in Christian morality last semester. They are very interesting to study.[/quote] Yes, they are interesting topics. Although I do not agree with St. Thomas on issues surrounding the Trinity and Incarnation, I do basically agree with his treatises on morality. Edited July 2, 2009 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitty Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1907929' date='Jul 2 2009, 01:18 AM']The Magisterium does.[/quote] Do you honestly think I care? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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