"Kyrie eleison" Posted June 29, 2009 Author Share Posted June 29, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1905323' date='Jun 29 2009, 12:28 PM']If it is done in the name of the Trinity ( which is not a given in a megachurch) and it is intended to do what the Church does it should be a valid baptism.[/quote] Don, You state that it will [b]not [/b]be done in the name of the trinity in this mega church, so then it is [b]not [/b]valid. I know my sister intent is to get him baptised and recognized by God, is this intent enough to make it valid? Edited June 29, 2009 by "Kyrie eleison" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted June 29, 2009 Share Posted June 29, 2009 [quote name='CatherineM' post='1905305' date='Jun 29 2009, 11:59 AM']I dated a man for awhile who showed all the signs of becoming abusive later, but I didn't want to see the signs. I was older, and had experience in the world, but still wanted to think the best of someone I thought I wanted to marry. Sometimes abusers don't show themselves until after marriage. You can't blame the victim for not being clairvoyant.[/quote] No, I'm not even pondering "clairvoyance" here... I'm assuming that in most cases, (not all,) abusers show definite signs of being abusive while dating... I know plenty of cases of women who were physically, emotionally abused by their boyfriends and still wound up marrying the guy... Heck, my best friend is still dating and considering marrying a guy who was in a sexual relationship with another girl while being engaged to her! Why? I don't know? We are all telling her to keep away from him, but she's not listening to anyone. Do I see trouble if they were to actually go through and get married? Yes. Certainly. And it breaks my heart to think of what a horrible life she may have if he's unfaithful to her in the marriage... I don't know if I would consider these women "victims." It seems that even with families and friends opposed, they continue on with a relationship that is dangerous and foolish to be involved in... [quote]Most of the annulments I was involved in were granted on the grounds of immaturity. That's not age based anymore. Most people aren't really aware of what marriage truly involves until after they marry. That's because our culture doesn't show us real marriages, on TV or at the movies.[/quote] Well, it's the Church's responsibility to show us what holy marriage is all about. The Church has failed in proper catechesis for the last 40 years, and marriages often fail because people do not know what they are getting into, and with the wrong person. Also, many do not take their Vows very seriously. There is a grave absence of Holy Fear of God these days... Most of the Wedding prep sessions at my Parish are wishy-washy feel good retreats. Most of the couples that attend are already co-habitating and in sexual relationships and that issue is not even addressed... If we want to see a difference in the way we view Holy Matrimony, the Church needs to go back to preaching the truth of what it is, what it takes, what it means, who it's for, etc. etc. If some have a hard time accepting it, and it drives some people away from the Church, then that's their loss... ...the same for those who cannot accept the legitimate processes for annulment... some just don't want to hear that it may be their fault, or that the Church cannot accomodate their lifestyle... (and I'm not speaking of Kyrie's sister here, I'm speaking in general...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted June 29, 2009 Share Posted June 29, 2009 (edited) [quote name='"Kyrie eleison' post='1905326' date='Jun 29 2009, 01:33 PM']Don, You state that it will [b]not [/b]be done in the name of the trinity in this mega church, so then it is [b]not [/b]valid. I know my sister intent is to get him baptised and recognized by God, is this intent enough to make it valid?[/quote] No it may be done in the name of the Trinity, I am just saying that it may not be, that unlike say a mainline Protestant Church, where you can be assured it is the name of the Trinity, it may not be in the feel good megachurches. I would ask, I doubt that any pastor in a mega church would refuse to do it inthe name of the Trinity if that was requested. However, if not, it [i]might[/i] only be done in the name of Jesus. Which is not enough. Intent is not enough unless it is in the Name of the Trinity. The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. Edited June 29, 2009 by Don John of Austria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted June 29, 2009 Share Posted June 29, 2009 [quote name='dominicansoul' post='1905371' date='Jun 29 2009, 12:36 PM']Well, it's the Church's responsibility to show us what holy marriage is all about. The Church has failed in proper catechesis for the last 40 years, and marriages often fail because people do not know what they are getting into, and with the wrong person. Also, many do not take their Vows very seriously. There is a grave absence of Holy Fear of God these days... Most of the Wedding prep sessions at my Parish are wishy-washy feel good retreats. Most of the couples that attend are already co-habitating and in sexual relationships and that issue is not even addressed... If we want to see a difference in the way we view Holy Matrimony, the Church needs to go back to preaching the truth of what it is, what it takes, what it means, who it's for, etc. etc. If some have a hard time accepting it, and it drives some people away from the Church, then that's their loss...[/quote] +J.M.J.+ i know of priests who during marriage prep teach it is okay to use contraception. i think though the USCCB is doing a good thing with their marriage website. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
"Kyrie eleison" Posted June 29, 2009 Author Share Posted June 29, 2009 [quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1905401' date='Jun 29 2009, 02:04 PM']No it may be done in the name of the Trinity, I am just saying that it may not be, that unlike say a mainline Protestant Church, where you can be assured it is the name of the Trinity, it may not be in the feel good megachurches. I would ask, I doubt that any pastor in a mega church would refuse to do it inthe name of the Trinity if that was requested. However, if not, it [i]might[/i] only be done in the name of Jesus. Which is not enough. Intent is not enough unless it is in the Name of the Trinity. The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit.[/quote] I will definitely have my sister ask whether or not they baptise in the Trinity. Another thing I remember her mentioning about this megachurch is that she can really relate because they have so many differing classes which help you deal with what life challenges you are facing. I looked on their website and they have classes everyday for everything under the sun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StColette Posted June 29, 2009 Share Posted June 29, 2009 [quote name='"Kyrie eleison' post='1905441' date='Jun 29 2009, 03:41 PM']Another thing I remember her mentioning about this megachurch is that she can really relate because they have so many differing classes which help you deal with what life challenges you are facing. I looked on their website and they have classes everyday for everything under the sun.[/quote] This may come down the different individual parishes. The parish where I work is quite active with about 80+ ministries/classes. So it really depends on the individual parish. Some are less active than others because of parishioner population or their location. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
"Kyrie eleison" Posted June 29, 2009 Author Share Posted June 29, 2009 [quote name='StColette' post='1905446' date='Jun 29 2009, 02:54 PM']This may come down the different individual parishes. The parish where I work is quite active with about 80+ ministries/classes. So it really depends on the individual parish. Some are less active than others because of parishioner population or their location.[/quote] StColette', That is great, 80 classes! My daughter has friends who go to this megachurch because of the camraderie and the outreach in everyday problems of life, especially teenage pressure. They have asked her more than a couple of times to visit the church. Her confirmation teacher told me not to let her go, until she is more rooted in the Catholic faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StColette Posted June 29, 2009 Share Posted June 29, 2009 [quote name='"Kyrie eleison' post='1905451' date='Jun 29 2009, 04:02 PM']StColette', That is great, 80 classes! My daughter has friends who go to this megachurch because of the camraderie and the outreach in everyday problems of life, especially teenage pressure. They have asked her more than a couple of times to visit the church. Her confirmation teacher told me not to let her go, until she is more rooted in the Catholic faith.[/quote] Have you looked into some of your other local parishes for activities? Many of our smaller parishes in our diocese have their kids participate in our programs here. It might be something to look into. I agree with Catherine, some priests are more pastoral in handling situation like divorces and annulments better than others. My dad was very angry at the Church for quite some time after he and my mother divorced. He begged our parish priest to go and speak with my mom and help reconcile the marriage, but the priest refused. He told my dad that if my dad wanted him to speak to my mom she would have to seek him out not the other way around. The refusal to help from that priest was definitely a blow. My dad was working very hard to save their marriage while my mom was ready to abandon it for another man. So the divorce was one sided (my mom's idea not my dad's) and it created a large rift between my dad and the Church. Thank the Lord that after we moved and I got involved in a local parish during High School that I had an awesome, orthodox and pastoral priest who helped my dad out a lot. It took him a while to realize that priests are human too and one priest doesn't act for all of the priests. So it really does come down to the individual priest. I would take Catherine's advice and seek out the Tribunal just to gather information for your sister. It would make things a lot less scary. And as Catherine pointed out, the Tribunal will know which priest would be best to handle a certain case. Certain priests are better at handling abuse cases within marriages that are resulting in divorce and annulment and others better at handling one spouse leaving the other for another person, etc. The Tribunal will know which priest would be best for her to speak with. I pray that things can be reconciled between your sister and the Church. It's definitely a hard road but not impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
"Kyrie eleison" Posted June 29, 2009 Author Share Posted June 29, 2009 Thank you Collette for all your insight. We as lay persons tend to believe that priests should not make mistakes. They are human just as we are. All of you have eased my anxiety and concern for my sister and her family. Nothing is impossible and I will look into finding a priest who is understanding, especially because of the abuse and her sensitivity to re-living the past in an anulment. Many divorceess suffer because of the lack of compassion in this issue just as your dad. I know my sister is struggling and just wants to make peace within herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 [quote name='dominicansoul' post='1905371' date='Jun 29 2009, 01:36 PM']No, I'm not even pondering "clairvoyance" here... I'm assuming that in most cases, (not all,) abusers show definite signs of being abusive while dating... I know plenty of cases of women who were physically, emotionally abused by their boyfriends and still wound up marrying the guy... Heck, my best friend is still dating and considering marrying a guy who was in a sexual relationship with another girl while being engaged to her! Why? I don't know? We are all telling her to keep away from him, but she's not listening to anyone. Do I see trouble if they were to actually go through and get married? Yes. Certainly. And it breaks my heart to think of what a horrible life she may have if he's unfaithful to her in the marriage... I don't know if I would consider these women "victims." It seems that even with families and friends opposed, they continue on with a relationship that is dangerous and foolish to be involved in... Well, it's the Church's responsibility to show us what holy marriage is all about. The Church has failed in proper catechesis for the last 40 years, and marriages often fail because people do not know what they are getting into, and with the wrong person. Also, many do not take their Vows very seriously. There is a grave absence of Holy Fear of God these days... Most of the Wedding prep sessions at my Parish are wishy-washy feel good retreats. Most of the couples that attend are already co-habitating and in sexual relationships and that issue is not even addressed... If we want to see a difference in the way we view Holy Matrimony, the Church needs to go back to preaching the truth of what it is, what it takes, what it means, who it's for, etc. etc. If some have a hard time accepting it, and it drives some people away from the Church, then that's their loss... ...the same for those who cannot accept the legitimate processes for annulment... some just don't want to hear that it may be their fault, or that the Church cannot accomodate their lifestyle... (and I'm not speaking of Kyrie's sister here, I'm speaking in general...)[/quote] I have never understood either why women marry guys who are abusive during dating. Mine was controlling and showed a lot of the things you are supposed to watch for, and I still didn't "see" them for a long time. My friends could, but I didn't listen to them at first. As to catechism, I agree with you completely. I think inadequate catechism is the root of many of the problems in the church. Our pre-marriage classes were just as you described. They were for those over the age of 30 or those who had been married before. The younger group had to go once a week for 3 months, and I'm hoping had more instruction on things. The older group only met for one weekend. I suspect everyone was probably co-habbing, except for us. All I can do, is speak the truth as a catechist, and hope that some of it sticks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilroy the Ninja Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 [quote name='"Kyrie eleison' post='1905451' date='Jun 29 2009, 04:02 PM']StColette', That is great, 80 classes! My daughter has friends who go to this megachurch because of the camraderie and the outreach in everyday problems of life, especially teenage pressure. They have asked her more than a couple of times to visit the church. Her confirmation teacher told me not to let her go, until she is more rooted in the Catholic faith.[/quote] These mega churches are insidious. They are horrible. The biggest mega church here in Houston is Lakewood Church - which used to have the tagline "The Oasis of Love" but then changed it to "We're all about You!". Really? I thought church was all about God. Silly me. You should find out what kind of employment opportunities this "church" offers. For example, many, if not most of these "churches" employ - yes, employ (although some ask for volunteers) people to stand at the same door (usually these places are big enough to have many multiple entrances) every week and memorize the names (or as many as they can) of the people who come through those doors so they will feel "welcome" and "included". Now before you say well isn't that a lovely touch to the "worship" experience, keep in mind that people are creatures of habit and this "church" is counting on the habit that these people will continue to use the same entrance AND (and this is the big one) the greeters are PAID to care - at that moment. As for your daughter going to these classes, her confirmation teacher is ABSOLUTELY CORRECT! Unless she is firmly rooted in her Catholic faith, contact with this "church" could lead to her doubting her faith and raising questions she may not wait for answers to. Now, I don't know your daughter obviously and I pray that she is nothing like me, but when I was a teenager all of my close friends were Baptist. We lived in a very small, close-knit community and our parish simply wasn't big enough to support youth activities. So many many times I spent Wednesday nights at youth night at the Baptist church. While I was confirmed as a teenager, I was not [i]invested[/i] in my confirmation and did it simply because it was expected of me by my parents and grandparents. (Fortunately I'm all kinds of invested now! ) In any case, this exposure to the Baptist church and their VERY different ideas of baptism, forgivness etc., actually led me to doubt my faith, and led me away from the Catholic church - which I all but forsook for about 10 years. My point in this rather lengthy commentary is that while you have no real control over what your sister does, you should exert every control and influence over what your daughter does. Teenagers are sponges and they soak everything up whether you think they are listening or not! If your daughter wants to go these classes see if you can go with her so you know what is being said and so you can discuss it later. Seek out these kinds of classes or services from your own diocese and see if they offer anything like it. Ask and you shall receive. Be the example for your sister. Show her what the Catholic church has to offer. As for her not wanting to dredge up the past, I can feel her pain as in my 10 year absence I also "married" outside the Church and was divorced. I was spared the pain of physical abuse and mental abuse but I was not spared the pain of simply being tossed aside like so much used garbage - and this is a pain that haunts my life and relationships to this day. But part of the process of getting past that pain is to acknowledge it and to get an annullment might mean so much more to her than she might think. It could be affirmation that it was not her fault. It is hard to do, but life is hard. Choosing the easy way out is not for the Easter people. Mega churches are easy because they are feel-good oriented on purpose. And believe me they have a purpose. And that purpose has more to do with making money to keep the good-feelin' times a'rolling. The Catholic church is all about repentance and redemption and forgiveness. But you have to acknowledge that which causes you to seek repentance. It may be too soon for your sister, but pray for her and invite her back to mass every week. Invite her to parish events. Invite her back. Btw Don John is absolutely correct - if the baptism is not done in the name of the Trinity it is in no way valid. All Christian baptisms done in the name of the Trinity are recognized as valid by the Catholic Church (I believe this is accurate) and should pose no problem to the child should they chose to come to the Church later. If your mother chooses not to attend, that is her choice and all should respect that choice - including your sister. Recognize that your mother is being true to her faith and her beliefs in the face of the great personal pain it must cause her. If you choose to attend out of love for your sister that is fine also, but be aware that it will only be a valid baptism if it is done in the name of the Trinity. Love the sinner, hate the sin. I hope that I have not offended with anything I have posted as it was not my intent, but after days of lurking (as a moderator is called to do) I simply could not keep quiet any longer. I pray your sister sees her error and returns to the Church soon. I am glad she has not given up on God completely (as I did). Pray for her and invite her and protect your daughter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
"Kyrie eleison" Posted July 1, 2009 Author Share Posted July 1, 2009 [quote name='Kilroy the Ninja' post='1906273' date='Jun 30 2009, 11:59 AM']These mega churches are insidious. They are horrible. The biggest mega church here in Houston is Lakewood Church - which used to have the tagline "The Oasis of Love" but then changed it to "We're all about You!". Really? I thought church was all about God. Silly me. You should find out what kind of employment opportunities this "church" offers. For example, many, if not most of these "churches" employ - yes, employ (although some ask for volunteers) people to stand at the same door (usually these places are big enough to have many multiple entrances) every week and memorize the names (or as many as they can) of the people who come through those doors so they will feel "welcome" and "included". Now before you say well isn't that a lovely touch to the "worship" experience, keep in mind that people are creatures of habit and this "church" is counting on the habit that these people will continue to use the same entrance AND (and this is the big one) the greeters are PAID to care - at that moment.[/quote] Yeah, I know. I read on their webpage that they stamp your kids with a number, so no one can leave with them but the same adult with the same number. That is so scary to me. This is a huge church. [quote name='Kilroy the Ninja' post='1906273' date='Jun 30 2009, 11:59 AM']As for your daughter going to these classes, her confirmation teacher is ABSOLUTELY CORRECT! Unless she is firmly rooted in her Catholic faith, contact with this "church" could lead to her doubting her faith and raising questions she may not wait for answers to. Now, I don't know your daughter obviously and I pray that she is nothing like me, but when I was a teenager all of my close friends were Baptist. We lived in a very small, close-knit community and our parish simply wasn't big enough to support youth activities. So many many times I spent Wednesday nights at youth night at the Baptist church. While I was confirmed as a teenager, I was not [i]invested[/i] in my confirmation and did it simply because it was expected of me by my parents and grandparents. (Fortunately I'm all kinds of invested now! ) In any case, this exposure to the Baptist church and their VERY different ideas of baptism, forgivness etc., actually led me to doubt my faith, and led me away from the Catholic church - which I all but forsook for about 10 years. My point in this rather lengthy commentary is that while you have no real control over what your sister does, you should exert every control and influence over what your daughter does. Teenagers are sponges and they soak everything up whether you think they are listening or not! If your daughter wants to go these classes see if you can go with her so you know what is being said and so you can discuss it later. Seek out these kinds of classes or services from your own diocese and see if they offer anything like it. Ask and you shall receive. Be the example for your sister. Show her what the Catholic church has to offer.[/quote] Teenagers are really swayed to want to fit in and they need to be feel validated. I have had discussions with my daughter and explained that alot of these megachurches are kind of like circuses. They have big rock bands that you listen to they keep you entertained and on the edge of your seat with celebrity guest speakers and so on and so forth. I too, left the Catholic church because of not being rooted in the faith, but did return after searching for the TRUTH. I am proud of my daughter and I do believe she is learning more and more about our Catholic faith and its roots. She told me that she had got into a disagreement with her friend who was telling her that she shouldn't be wearing a bracelet which had Blessed Mary on it. My daughter asked her, "Why, she is the mother of Jesus who is God." She continued to tell her, "Would you be ashamed to wear a pendant with your mother on it, why should I not wear one of the mother who brought Jesus into the world?!" I was so proud of her and I hope it gave her friend something to ponder on! [quote name='Kilroy the Ninja' post='1906273' date='Jun 30 2009, 11:59 AM']As for her not wanting to dredge up the past, I can feel her pain as in my 10 year absence I also "married" outside the Church and was divorced. I was spared the pain of physical abuse and mental abuse but I was not spared the pain of simply being tossed aside like so much used garbage - and this is a pain that haunts my life and relationships to this day. But part of the process of getting past that pain is to acknowledge it and to get an annullment might mean so much more to her than she might think. It could be affirmation that it was not her fault. It is hard to do, but life is hard. Choosing the easy way out is not for the Easter people. Mega churches are easy because they are feel-good oriented on purpose. And believe me they have a purpose. And that purpose has more to do with making money to keep the good-feelin' times a'rolling. The Catholic church is all about repentance and redemption and forgiveness. But you have to acknowledge that which causes you to seek repentance. It may be too soon for your sister, but pray for her and invite her back to mass every week. Invite her to parish events. Invite her back.[/quote] My sister had a breakdown because of her divorce and yes, it is a very difficult subject, which I have brought up to her. I will continue to be a example to her and pray for her that God may touch her heart. I know she wants to do the right thing for herself and her family. [quote name='Kilroy the Ninja' post='1906273' date='Jun 30 2009, 11:59 AM']Btw Don John is absolutely correct - if the baptism is not done in the name of the Trinity it is in no way valid. All Christian baptisms done in the name of the Trinity are recognized as valid by the Catholic Church (I believe this is accurate) and should pose no problem to the child should they chose to come to the Church later. If your mother chooses not to attend, that is her choice and all should respect that choice - including your sister. Recognize that your mother is being true to her faith and her beliefs in the face of the great personal pain it must cause her. If you choose to attend out of love for your sister that is fine also, but be aware that it will only be a valid baptism if it is done in the name of the Trinity. Love the sinner, hate the sin.[/quote] Yes, my mother loves this baby so much and wants him to grow up in the Catholic faith, as I do. As I said earlier, I will ask my sister to find out how and what they actually do and say at the baptism. If they don't baptise in the name of the Trinity, I will specifically ask her to have them do this. [quote name='Kilroy the Ninja' post='1906273' date='Jun 30 2009, 11:59 AM']I hope that I have not offended with anything I have posted as it was not my intent, but after days of lurking (as a moderator is called to do) I simply could not keep quiet any longer. I pray your sister sees her error and returns to the Church soon. I am glad she has not given up on God completely (as I did). Pray for her and invite her and protect your daughter. [/quote] Thank you Ninja and to all for all your insight they have help me greatly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
"Kyrie eleison" Posted July 1, 2009 Author Share Posted July 1, 2009 [quote name='CatherineM' post='1905649' date='Jun 29 2009, 07:19 PM']I have never understood either why women marry guys who are abusive during dating. Mine was controlling and showed a lot of the things you are supposed to watch for, and I still didn't "see" them for a long time. My friends could, but I didn't listen to them at first.[/quote] Catherine, This is so true. My daughter who is 16, who loves her aunt so much has been involved in all of this struggle that my sister has been through. It hurt my daughter greatly, because she was so close to my sister's ex -husband (he never displayed his abuse in front of us). But, she is now wiser and knows of the signs to look for which are red flags. I told her to run for dear life if any one tries to control her or physically lays a hand on her in anyway (male or female)! [quote name='CatherineM' post='1905649' date='Jun 29 2009, 07:19 PM']As to catechism, I agree with you completely. I think inadequate catechism is the root of many of the problems in the church. Our pre-marriage classes were just as you described. They were for those over the age of 30 or those who had been married before. The younger group had to go once a week for 3 months, and I'm hoping had more instruction on things. The older group only met for one weekend. I suspect everyone was probably co-habbing, except for us. All I can do, is speak the truth as a catechist, and hope that some of it sticks.[/quote] This is so true. Alot of it is immaturity. I married at 25, my husband was 26, but he was still immature. We had a rough first 10 years, because of his irresponsibility and we separated for 4 years. I believe that couples should be required to attend marriage classes every 5 years or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dairygirl4u2c Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 (edited) there's arguable biblical basis's for remarriage. pauline, petrine privileges. 'except for cases of adultery' as jesus said. i think there's one verse where it looked like you can never remarry, though, and that causes confusion given the other stuff mentioned. it's too much to expect a lay person to not remarry, when they are not that firm in the catholic faith anyway. if they were deep in it, that'd be something else. they have to be alone, despite all the decent academic and common sensical arguments to the contrary-- for something they just happen to do, ie be catholic. that's brutal if the catholic church is wrong. if they're not trying to defy God etc, they still have faith etc-- i can see why they'd leave. [quote]Orthodoxy recognises that people sin. Divorce is a sin. It faces it head-on, rather than pretending it doesn't exist. Permission may be procured for a second marriage, but not until after the bishop is satisfied that the person seeking to marry again was the innocent party in the divorce. (There are two explicit Scriptural grounds for divorce - adultery, and abandonment. There are also related grounds - for example, severe spousal abuse is also a ground - because it is abandonment in a particularly cruel form.... i.e. the spouse does not have the courtesy to run off, but rather beats his wife until she does.).. A recently divorced Orthodox Christian is never given permission to re-marry immediately (whereas a Roman Catholic can marry immediately after receiving an annulment). Each case is determined on a case-by-case basis (there is no set formula, the canons are used as guidelines, not laws[/quote] i don't know if that's applicable to all orthodox churchs -- but i wouldn't be surprised. orthodoxy has a way of being intuitive and common sensical. the catholic church has a way of backing itself into a corner it can't get out of. (i always concede it could be the true church, but i think it likely less and less all the time, especially when i see the orthodox alternative -- ie, if my positions are wrong, i don't want to be right - though i'd change them if they were wrong) Edited July 1, 2009 by dairygirl4u2c Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
"Kyrie eleison" Posted July 1, 2009 Author Share Posted July 1, 2009 [quote](i always concede it could be the true church, but i think it likely less and less all the time, especially when i see the orthodox alternative -- ie, if my positions are wrong, i don't want to be right - though i'd change them if they were wrong)[/quote] Dairy, I always thought you were wishy-washy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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