OraProMe Posted June 28, 2009 Share Posted June 28, 2009 When do you enter by the way? Will you have access to phatmass ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VeniteAdoremus Posted June 28, 2009 Share Posted June 28, 2009 [quote name='OraProMe' post='1903596' date='Jun 28 2009, 06:53 PM']When do you enter by the way? Will you have access to phatmass ?[/quote] September. I don't know when but last year the postulant entered on the feast of the Archangels, so... I think I'll hear during my next visit, in two weeks *dances around the computer lab in a tremendously undignified manner* And no, I don't think so It's more monthly-letter-to-my-parents* style. Maybe after profession. That's only three years *who live in separate nations, so I don't know how that's going to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissyP89 Posted June 28, 2009 Share Posted June 28, 2009 VA, I'll miss you. Anyhow, as for the topic at hand, I think it was Va that said those of us that get lost in the EF should stick to the OF, etc, and I agree. I think that it's an incredible blessing that the Church offers us that diversity while still dispensing graes and, more importantly, Christ in the Eucharist. We truly do live up to our Catholic name at times like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kafka Posted June 28, 2009 Share Posted June 28, 2009 [quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1903363' date='Jun 28 2009, 01:11 AM']Fixed it for ya. Chanting scriptures is a dying art. I want to learn it so it may be introduced into the ordinary form.[/quote] At my Cathedral on Good Friday the Passion in the OF liturgy was chanted exactly as it is chanted in the EF liturgy, same with the Easter Vigil. It worked seemlessly as I have personally heard (and actually chanted myself) the Readings of Holy and Solemn Masses in Latin several times. The chant tones can be applied to English, and done so for the most part seemlessly. I'm not sure what is going to happen in the future of the Liturgy. It is my understanding that during the Tribulation the Church will eventually be divided first into seven parts, and much later toward the end, into twelve parts like the twelve tribes of Israel of old. So I'm sure this development will affect the liturgy in some way. In my opinion the best solution would be one universal form translated into every language of the earth with perhaps some parts of the Mass which express the uniqueness and tradition of the different areas and cultures of the world. I dont know. I'm no Liturgist so I can only come up with very basic ideas and thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted June 28, 2009 Author Share Posted June 28, 2009 [quote name='kafka' post='1903613' date='Jun 28 2009, 11:12 AM']I'm not sure what is going to happen in the future of the Liturgy. It is my understanding that during the Tribulation the Church will eventually be divided first into seven parts, and much later toward the end, into twelve parts like the twelve tribes of Israel of old. So I'm sure this development will affect the liturgy in some way. In my opinion the best solution would be one universal form translated into every language of the earth with perhaps some parts of the Mass which express the uniqueness and tradition of the different areas and cultures of the world. I dont know. I'm no Liturgist so I can only come up with very basic ideas and thoughts.[/quote] I don't think the Byzantines, Alexandrians, Armenians, Maronites, or Chaldeans would appreciate a universal rite. I also think it would be very difficult to translate the liturgy of the Church into every language because the Pope needs to verify that the translations of the sacramental forms are valid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kafka Posted June 28, 2009 Share Posted June 28, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1903619' date='Jun 28 2009, 12:17 PM']I don't think the Byzantines, Alexandrians, Armenians, Maronites, or Chaldeans would appreciate a universal rite. I also think it would be very difficult to translate the liturgy of the Church into every language because the Pope needs to verify that the translations of the sacramental forms are valid.[/quote] God will make things clear in time. the Pope could have a prominent Patriarch of the East verify it. As a matter of fact eventually I think there will be two positions in the Church to support the Pope like James and John were next to Peter at the Transfiguration, and other events of Christ. One of these positions will probably be over the Eastern Churches. Edited June 28, 2009 by kafka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted June 28, 2009 Author Share Posted June 28, 2009 (edited) [quote name='kafka' post='1903625' date='Jun 28 2009, 11:24 AM']God will make things clear in time. the Pope could have a prominent Patriarch of the East verify it. As a matter of fact eventually I think there will be two positions in the Church to support the Pope like James and John were next to Peter at the Transfiguration, and other events of Christ. One of these positions will probably be over the Eastern Churches.[/quote] The Pope cannot delegate his infallibility to two other bishops. Edited June 28, 2009 by Resurrexi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kafka Posted June 28, 2009 Share Posted June 28, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1903626' date='Jun 28 2009, 12:29 PM']The Pope cannot delegate his infallibility to two other bishops.[/quote] these decisions are of his temporal authority, not of his spiritual authority. And where did I say the pope would delegate his spiritual authority? Edited June 28, 2009 by kafka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted June 28, 2009 Author Share Posted June 28, 2009 I was talking about the approval of translations of sacramental forms. One or two mere bishops approved the formulas with no involvement from the pope wouldn't be a good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffpugh Posted June 28, 2009 Share Posted June 28, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1903413' date='Jun 28 2009, 02:11 AM']You are correct that Latin, incense, chant, etc. can be found in the OF, and I do appreciate it when priests do include this things in the OF, but the fact is that they are not found very often. My biggest problems with the OF, however, are that Communion is permitted to be distributed in the hand and that EMHCs are permitted at normal Sunday Masses. These things will probably not be fixed without legislation from the Holy See. As I have said before, I do have an appreciation for the OF celebrated correctly (by correctly, I mean as much like the EF as is permitted by the rubrics), but there is not a single change that I like. If feel that some things, like Communion in the hand and [i]versus poplum[/i], have been detrimental to the way many people understand the Mass. Ideally, I would like an EF missal with some new saints added to replace the OF.[/quote] Yeah. EF is missing the new saints . (the other stuff has been addressed. I'm not going to lay it on you again). [quote name='VeniteAdoremus' post='1903446' date='Jun 28 2009, 03:31 AM']We have a couple of priests here who chant the Gospel. Always at Easter and Christmas, and sometimes through-the-year. It is teh awesome. They also sing the ...what comes between Offertory and Sanctus. I can't think right now (I just woke up and my dad is singing his Office next door... and he most definitely can't sing). Prefation! Sung prefation in Latin. Rocks. I was really surprised to read that Latin, incense, and silence are exclusive parts of the EF rite. That means I've been going to invalid OF masses for [i]years[/i]. Ouch! Res, communion in the hand and [i]versus populum[/i] are NOT essential to the OF. If you really want to compare the two, you would have the strongest arguments if you compared it against the best possible version. The main thing I don't like about the OF are the intercessory prayers. I have yet to encounter a set of prayers that aren't actually written or said for the people to listen to, instead of for God to listen to. I know a priest who can make reading from a milk carton sound prayerful, but even he has trouble with the intercessory prayers. It keeps sounding like either a shopping list or the action plan of the Christian Party. The main thing I like about the EF is that the laity have a different role than in the OF. In the OF, we're answering the priest and saying some prayers along, but in the EF we sing the Propers while the priest gets on with his stuff, and then we pray (and the priest doesn't talk through it... OF post-communion pet peeve). This is a wholly non-theological feeling. I just prefer the type of teamwork where everybody is doing what he's best at, instead of everybody doing more or less the same for the sake of equality. I understand that some people prefer the latter. I'm glad we get to have both [/quote] Nice. [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1903532' date='Jun 28 2009, 10:57 AM']I disagree with you then. I believe that beauty is objective. As we are made in the image of God, and like God, we have intellect and will, we can perceive that objective beauty.[/quote] Yes. I agree with this statement. God is the source of all beauty and is all beautiful, therefore there is an objective beauty. [quote name='VeniteAdoremus' post='1903558' date='Jun 28 2009, 11:20 AM']What I find vaguely hilarious is that Res, Ora and I ALL prefer the EF. [/quote] Cool. I think missionseeker prefers EF too. I think I would prefer EF if I had more access to it Still, I couldn't vote on the poll. I don't want to divide the forms at the moment... [quote name='kafka' post='1903613' date='Jun 28 2009, 12:12 PM']At my Cathedral on Good Friday the Passion in the OF liturgy was chanted exactly as it is chanted in the EF liturgy, same with the Easter Vigil. It worked seemlessly as I have personally heard (and actually chanted myself) the Readings of Holy and Solemn Masses in Latin several times. The chant tones can be applied to English, and done so for the most part seemlessly. I'm not sure what is going to happen in the future of the Liturgy. It is my understanding that during the Tribulation the Church will eventually be divided first into seven parts, and much later toward the end, into twelve parts like the twelve tribes of Israel of old. So I'm sure this development will affect the liturgy in some way. In my opinion the best solution would be one universal form translated into every language of the earth with perhaps some parts of the Mass which express the uniqueness and tradition of the different areas and cultures of the world. I dont know. I'm no Liturgist so I can only come up with very basic ideas and thoughts.[/quote] From what I understand, chanting the readings/lessons are all one tone, but there are certain interval changes up or down depending on the punctuation mark. It is something I heard that developed from "sotta voce", because it gives formulated cues for the direction of the readings, without the reader giving his (or her) "additions" of inflectionion or whatever that may interrupt the grace of taking in the Word in its entirety. I dunno how else to explain it. It's a beautiful safeguard for actively listening and understanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted June 28, 2009 Author Share Posted June 28, 2009 [quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1903744' date='Jun 28 2009, 12:32 PM']Yeah. EF is missing the new saints . (the other stuff has been addressed. I'm not going to lay it on you again).[/quote] [i]Sacrosanctum Concilium[/i] does not apply to the EF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picchick Posted June 28, 2009 Share Posted June 28, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1903512' date='Jun 28 2009, 10:41 AM']I do think that Latin, beautiful vestments, and incense are very pleasing to God [b]because all beautiful things glorify God, their maker.[/b][/quote] Then my mere presence should suffice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffpugh Posted June 28, 2009 Share Posted June 28, 2009 Oh? I guess that's true. A while back in lent we had an EF mass in a really liberalised parish on U of T campus. It was a big deal. The priest from FSSP had a Q & A after. Someone was there heckling him about the need to use a missal for following the liturgy cause he said along the lines of "vatican ii documents say no missals because it doesn't propagate 'active participation'". I had to snicker... cause vain efforts to get the congregation to "participate" doesn't propagate active participation either. You get participation, but is it part of the liturgy? /rant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted June 28, 2009 Author Share Posted June 28, 2009 (edited) [quote name='picchick' post='1903765' date='Jun 28 2009, 12:42 PM']Then my mere presence should suffice. [/quote] You were saying that I'm full of myself? Edited June 28, 2009 by Resurrexi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted June 28, 2009 Author Share Posted June 28, 2009 [quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1903766' date='Jun 28 2009, 12:42 PM']Oh? I guess that's true. A while back in lent we had an EF mass in a really liberalised parish on U of T campus. It was a big deal. The priest from FSSP had a Q & A after. Someone was there heckling him about the need to use a missal for following the liturgy cause he said along the lines of "vatican ii documents say no missals because it doesn't propagate 'active participation'". I had to snicker... cause vain efforts to get the congregation to "participate" doesn't propagate active participation either. You get participation, but is it part of the liturgy? /rant.[/quote] In my experience many regular attendees of the EF hardly use their hand-missals anyway because they know the prayers so well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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