The Mass

[kafka]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1903266' date='Jun 27 2009, 11:58 PM']Certain languages are sacred because they are the official languages of the Liturgy.[/quote]
that doesnt make any sense. A whole language isnt made sacred because it is used in the Liturgy.

With that logic eventually every language on Earth will be sacred since the Liturgy is celebrated in almost every language.

can you point to me the theological background of this idea?

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='OraProMe' post='1903273' date='Jun 27 2009, 11:04 PM']AWESOME!

Now I want you to tell me why you think the EF Mass is superior to the OF?
The answer you've given here implies because of Latin, incense, externals. Externals that really don't matter to God.

You see maybe if you said "oh the EF Mass is a more complete expression of Catholic doctrine" or "oh, you know the EF Mass expresses the sacrificial nature of the Mass so well". But given your answer to the question I posed it seems you're only worried about externals and not actual substance?

Once again, I doubt that stuff impresses God. After all, he did create it all.[/quote]

I would like to change what I said. I would only prefer the OF Mass if the Roman Canon were used. I believe that it better represents Catholic doctrine than the other eucharistic prayers.

I would also like to let you know that earlier in the thread I mentioned that I believed that the EF expresses the Real Presence and the sacrificial nature of the Mass better.

Edited June 28, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='OraProMe' post='1903273' date='Jun 27 2009, 11:04 PM']Now I want you to tell me why you think the EF Mass is superior to the OF?
The answer you've given here implies because of Latin, incense, externals. Externals that really don't matter to God.[/quote]

This is how I think of it. An Our Father said slowly with devotion is more pleasing to God than an Our Father rushed through sloppily. In a like manner, a Mass solemnly chanted gives greater glory to God than a Mass merely read without chant.

I think that [url="http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20030108-The-Solemn-High-Mass.html"]this[/url] is the homily that I was discussing earlier, if you want to listen to it. (It is asked that you say three Hail Marys for the priest who gave the homily if you do listen to it.)

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='kafka' post='1903276' date='Jun 27 2009, 11:08 PM']that doesnt make any sense. A whole language isnt made sacred because it is used in the Liturgy.

With that logic eventually every language on Earth will be sacred since the Liturgy is celebrated in almost every language.

can you point to me the theological background of this idea?[/quote]

In Hebrew the word holy means "set aside." Certain languages are set aside for use in the celebration of the Mass and the administration of the Sacraments. The fact that they are set aside by the Church is what makes them holy.

I also agree with Pope John VIII that God "created the three principal languages, Hebrew, Greek, and Latin." ([url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14041b.htm"]Boczek, Codex, tom. I, pp. 43-44[/url])

Edited June 28, 2009 by Resurrexi

[OraProMe]

God doesn't create languages Res, they come about through intellectual evolution and the neccesity of our ancestors to express themselves. From there they adapt to their particular cultural and historical environment.

Edited June 28, 2009 by OraProMe

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='OraProMe' post='1903301' date='Jun 28 2009, 12:29 AM']God doesn't create languages Res, they come about through intellectual evolution and the neccesity of our ancestors to express themselves. From there they adapt to their particular cultural and historical environment.[/quote]
This.
I tried to think of something to respond to that quote, but couldn't think of anything. Props on the wording.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='OraProMe' post='1903301' date='Jun 27 2009, 11:29 PM']God doesn't create languages Res, they come about through intellectual evolution and the neccesity of our ancestors to express themselves. From their they adapt to their particular cultural and historical environment.[/quote]

When did I ever say that certain languages are holy in and of themselves?

I believe that Latin, Greek, and Hebrew are holy because those were the languages on the titulus that was hung over our Lord's head while he suffered for our salvation.

I hold that Coptic, Ge'ez, Syraic, etc. are sacred because they have been set aside by the Church for liturgical use.

Edited June 28, 2009 by Resurrexi

[kafka]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1903289' date='Jun 28 2009, 12:22 AM']In Hebrew the word holy means "set aside." Certain languages are set aside for use in the celebration of the Mass and the administration of the Sacraments. The fact that they are set aside by the Church is what makes them holy.[/quote]
the Church doesnt have the authority to set aside a language for the celebration of the Liturgy. There is no command from God to do this, and there is no ritual or example of this anywhere in Scripture that I am aware. Plus language is not an 'object' which can be made holy. It is a symbol. For example Scripture is Sacred because of the truths infallibly and inerrantly being expressed by God. The language used by God is not sacred in itself (strictly speaking).

Plus the Church has grown and evolved She has used many languages for the celebration of the liturgy.

I guess I have to study this more, but those are some of my seminal thoughts about this matter. I get the sense that the rad-trads tend to over-exalt the Latin language.

Edited June 28, 2009 by kafka

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1903304' date='Jun 27 2009, 11:31 PM']When did I ever say that certain languages are holy in and of themselves?

I believe that Latin, Greek, and Hebrew are holy because those were the languages on the titulus that was hung over our Lord's head while he suffered for our salvation.

I hold that Coptic, Ge'ez, Syraic, etc. are sacred because they have been set aside by the Church for liturgical use.[/quote]

I was replying to you saying:

I also agree with Pope John VIII that God "created the three principal languages, Hebrew, Greek, and Latin."

Also, I read this post before you changed created to holy, you little sneak >>

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='kafka' post='1903309' date='Jun 27 2009, 11:34 PM']the Church doesnt have the authority to set aside a language for the celebration of the Liturgy. There is no command from God to do this, and there is no ritual or example of this anywhere in Scripture that I am aware. Plus language is not an 'object' which can be made holy. It is a symbol. For example Scripture is Sacred because of the truths infallibly and inerrantly being expressed by God. The language used by God is not sacred in itself.

Plus the Church has grown and evolved She has used many languages for the celebration of the liturgy.

I guess I have to study this more, but those are some of my seminal thoughts about this matter. I get the sense that the rad-trads tend to over-exalt the Latin language.[/quote]

The Church certainly has the authority to set aside a language for the liturgy. For centuries, the Latin Church used exclusively Latin.

During the time before the Old Covenant was fulfilled, did not the the People of God use Hebrew for their liturgical services, even after Hebrew was no longer the vernacular?

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='OraProMe' post='1903310' date='Jun 27 2009, 11:34 PM']I was replying to you saying:

I also agree with Pope John VIII that God "created the three principal languages, Hebrew, Greek, and Latin."

Also, I read this post before you changed created to holy, you little sneak >>[/quote]

God guides the activity of all creation by His Providence. I think it can be correctly stated that God created Hebrew, Greek, and Latin in the sense that he guided their evolution.

[OraProMe]

So by that logic are you implying that he guided only the evolution of those three languages but not the rest?

Why those three?

Nahhhhhhh man.


PS. From ages ago, you said you'd want the Roman Canon at the OF Mass. Me too. The "I confess" too. I'm not sure what the rules are in America but over here the priests can replace it with their own little creation. Horrible.

I just wish all the options in the Novus Ordo would be taken away.

[kafka]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1903316' date='Jun 28 2009, 12:38 AM']The Church certainly has the authority to set aside a language for the liturgy. For centuries, the Latin Church used exclusively Latin.

During the time before the Old Covenant was fulfilled, did not the the People of God use Hebrew for their liturgical services, even after Hebrew was no longer the vernacular?[/quote]
I erred a bit, She has the temporal authority to decide what languages are to be used for the Liturgy. Now the way you are wording it is more all encompassing, as if the whole language is made holy because the Church uses it in the liturgy.

In any case you see the points I am trying to make.

And using your logic, the English language is holy since the Church in the U.S. and England and Australia uses it for her liturgy.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='OraProMe' post='1903321' date='Jun 27 2009, 11:42 PM']So by that logic are you implying that he guided only the evolution of those three languages but not the rest?

Why those three?[/quote]

What I am saying is that God guided the evolution of Hebrew, Greek, and Latin in order to make them what Pope John VIII would call the "principal languages."

God decided by His Providence that these would be the most important languages in 1st Century Palestine and thus the languages on the titulus of His Cross. Because of this close association with our Lord's passion and death, I hold them to be the principle languages of the human race.

[quote name='OraProMe' post='1903321' date='Jun 27 2009, 11:42 PM']PS. From ages ago, you said you'd want the Roman Canon at the OF Mass. Me too. The "I confess" too. I'm not sure what the rules are in America but over here the priests can replace it with their own little creation. Horrible.

I just wish all the options in the Novus Ordo would be taken away.[/quote]

I wish the OF were abrogated and replaced with the EF.

[quote name='kafka' post='1903323' date='Jun 27 2009, 11:42 PM']I erred a bit, She has the temporal authority to decide what languages are to be used for the Liturgy. Now the way you are wording it is more all encompassing, as if the whole language is made holy because the Church uses it in the liturgy.[/quote]

I think the Church's understanding that her liturgical languages are holier than others in a certain since was displayed by her marriage rites for centuries. To show her disapproval of mixed marriages, the Church did not permit the use of her liturgical language, Latin. Only the vernacular could be used in the celebration of a mixed marriage.

[quote name='kafka' post='1903323' date='Jun 27 2009, 11:42 PM']In any case you see the points I am trying to make.

And using your logic, the English language is holy since the Church in the U.S. and England and Australia uses it for her liturgy.[/quote]

I would say that English is not holier than any other language since it was not the language in which the official edition of the[i] Missale Romanum[/i] was promulgated.

Edited June 28, 2009 by Resurrexi

[OraProMe]

Ahhh Res,

You shouldn't follow so blindly.
One day you're going to come to a crisis or and no amount of ecclesial documentation will help you.

I really hope as you mature your faith does too.

Edited June 28, 2009 by OraProMe