CatholicCrusader Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 [quote]One can certainly disagree with Augustine and be Catholic, especially considering the fact that the Church condemned the extreme Augustinian view which the Jansenists later took up. [/quote] I had to open a thread here because the other debate was closed. LD, you said the above, but I would just liek to bring to your attention that St. Augustine is quoted in the Office (last Wednesday or Tuesday) as saying that those who are catechumens are "annointed", yet this annointing is not enough for salvation, so, he says, flee to the waters of Baptism, for that is the only way to enter Heaven. I am not exactly sure, but I think that was from Lauds, but it may not have been. (That is from the Traditional Office as approved by Pope John Paul II; however, I wish that he would have re-instituted the Traditional Mass/Office before any changes, as it was up until 1950). Further, if St. Augustine says that even the catechumens must run to these Baptismal waters, even once being "annointed", then surely a baby that does not even have any desire whatsoever would fall under the category of the said catechumens. Also, since this is in the Office, it cannot be doubted just as you cannot doubt anything Dogmatic in the Mass. I will need to check the translation on that. I don't know if that is exactly correct, but I will investigate it. God bless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 [quote name='CatholicCrusader' date='Mar 29 2004, 08:13 PM'] I had to open a thread here because the other debate was closed. LD, you said the above, but I would just liek to bring to your attention that St. Augustine is quoted in the Office (last Wednesday or Tuesday) as saying that those who are catechumens are "annointed", yet this annointing is not enough for salvation, so, he says, flee to the waters of Baptism, for that is the only way to enter Heaven. I am not exactly sure, but I think that was from Lauds, but it may not have been. (That is from the Traditional Office as approved by Pope John Paul II; however, I wish that he would have re-instituted the Traditional Mass/Office before any changes, as it was up until 1950). Further, if St. Augustine says that even the catechumens must run to these Baptismal waters, even once being "annointed", then surely a baby that does not even have any desire whatsoever would fall under the category of the said catechumens. Also, since this is in the Office, it cannot be doubted just as you cannot doubt anything Dogmatic in the Mass. I will need to check the translation on that. I don't know if that is exactly correct, but I will investigate it. God bless. [/quote] Actually Augustine taught very explicitly that catechumens who die before being baptized can be saved. I recall reading somewhere in his writings where he talked about the baptism of blood received by certain catechumens who were martyred, etc.. But this is of no matter because the teachings of the Church are the issue here, not the Theological views of St. Augustine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatholicCrusader Posted March 30, 2004 Author Share Posted March 30, 2004 I know his views are not in question, but, if it is a part of the Office that holds as much weight as if it were a part of the Mass (all Priests must say the Office everyday, but they are not required to say Mass everyday). God bless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livin_the_MASS Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 (edited) You'll never believe it I was sitting down watching E.W.T.N. Holy Mass and guess what Father Angelus talked about? Edited March 30, 2004 by Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 [quote name='CatholicCrusader' date='Mar 29 2004, 08:24 PM'] I know his views are not in question, but, if it is a part of the Office that holds as much weight as if it were a part of the Mass (all Priests must say the Office everyday, but they are not required to say Mass everyday). God bless. [/quote] That's an interesting idea. I've never considered the contents of the Office of Readings as having some kind of higher doctrinal status just because they are in the office. I think the readings are primarily for meditation and edification, not doctrine per se, and while something in the office would certainly be chosen as free of doctrinal error, it would still have to be understood and weighed in the context of the whole of Catholic doctrine not to mention the original context of the treatise from which it was extracted, and the broader context of the whole of the authors thought. Do you know which work that quote comes from? It might be interesting to look it up. Thanks. Peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 [quote name='Jason' date='Mar 29 2004, 08:59 PM'] You'll never believe it I was sitting down watching E.W.T.N. and Father Angelus guess what he talked about? [/quote] Limbo? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livin_the_MASS Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 Yes, he spoke of Limbo. Isn't that messed up? Now I will tell you Mother Angelica has said that babies are what they called baptism of blood. Thats in the CCC right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 [quote name='Jason' date='Mar 29 2004, 09:06 PM'] Yes, he spoke of Limbo. Isn't that messed up? Now I will tell you Mother Angelica has said that babies are what they called baptism of blood. Thats in the CCC right? [/quote] not as far as I know. The CCC says that we can hope that there is a way of salvation for unbaptized babies, but it doesn't actually say that there is one that we know of. Some Theologians have speculated about ways that babies could have baptism of desire through their parents, and also more recently a kind of baptism of blood for babies who are victims of abortion, but its all theoretical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 Here is a quote from James Likoudis for you Jason: [quote]"The Catholic Church teaches that "God has bound salvation to the Sacrament of Baptism, but He Himself is not bound by His sacraments" (CCC n. 1257). God can make whatever exceptions He wishes as regards unbaptized infants. Perhaps those unborn children killed by abortion in odium fidei (in real hatred of Christ and His teachings) may have the status of martyrs (like the Holy Innocents). It is true that Limbo cannot be taught as certain Catholic doctrine proposed by the Magisterium, but it has not been definitively rejected by the Magisterium either."[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livin_the_MASS Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 [quote]and also more recently a kind of baptism of blood for babies who are victims of abortion, but its all theoretical. [/quote] Thats what I'm talking about she believes this for those poor babies. Father did speak of limbo though. He didn't make it as a final destination but a possibility I would say is how he put it. This natural happiness is it the beatific vision? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livin_the_MASS Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 (edited) [quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Mar 29 2004, 09:11 PM']Here is a quote from James Likoudis for you Jason: [/quote] I put trust in this quote. I don't deny limbo, But just think how many innocent babies are killed a day! It's aweful! I place my trust in God and pray because of there helplessness and innocence as far as not sinning that He has mercy. He told St. Faustina that His Mercy is beyond human and angelic intellect. Edited March 30, 2004 by Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 (edited) [quote name='Jason' date='Mar 29 2004, 09:13 PM'] This natural happiness is it the beatific vision? [/quote] Nope. The concept of natural happiness is one of my main problems with the theory of limbo. I don't think it really makes sense or is consistent with Catholic Theology. Natural happiness is a hypothetical state where one is deprived of sanctifying grace and the beatific vision (which is a sharing in the Divine Life and seeing God face to face as it were), but does not experience any suffering and is supposedly blissfully ignorant of being eternal deprived of that which human nature is created for, namely union with God. This is what limbo is supposed to be, "natural" happiness. Its a step away from Jansenism if you ask me. Edited March 30, 2004 by Laudate_Dominum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livin_the_MASS Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 Bump, we posted at the same time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 (edited) [quote name='Jason' date='Mar 29 2004, 09:23 PM'] I put trust in this quote. I don't deny limbo, But just think how many innocent babies are killed a day! It's aweful! I place my trust in God and pray because of there helplessness and innocence as far as not sinning that He has mercy. He told St. Faustina that is Mercy is beyond human and angelic intellect. [/quote] I agree Jason. And I don't mean to say that I think its absurd to believe in limbo. I have my opinion on the matter, but I don't claim to know everything by any means and admit that limbo may in fact be true. I just have yet to be convinced of its necessity. And I also tend to think the formulations of limbo and the many theories surrounding this are flat and that a better explaination may be possible. God bless. Edited March 30, 2004 by Laudate_Dominum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livin_the_MASS Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 What part of limbo do you call sound, and what part would you call shakey? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now