The Crusades

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' date='09 July 2010 - 02:59 AM' timestamp='1278658763' post='2139785']
You are aware that a decent portion of the christian murdering, raping and destruction of christians was actually perpetrated by some of the christian crusaders?
[/quote]


Christians sin? Really? Clearly you have no clue of Christianity. What people individually do during a just war
does not change whether the war is just or not or whether the leaders who call the war sin or not. When people like you have trouble resolving moral dilemas it is clear that you are lacking some logic and cognitive reasoning.

[thessalonian]

I did not answer the pole. I would say that some if not all the wars were just. Again as I said above the
actions of those in the war does not determine whether they were just or not. Most were called in good
faith by the leaders entrusted with the obligation to protect their people. As for whether the
leaders sinned, it is the right and duty of governments and those in power to keep order and protect their people. Romans 13 makes it clear that this may even be by the sword. It is a very grave and solemn obligation
for them. I will leave it to God to judge whether they did it properly.

[thessalonian]

I did not answer the pole. I would say that some if not all the wars were just. Again as I said above the
actions of those in the war does not determine whether they were just or not. Most were called in good
faith by the leaders entrusted with the obligation to protect their people. As for whether the
leaders sinned, it is the right and duty of governments and those in power to keep order and protect their people. Romans 13 makes it clear that this may even be by the sword. It is a very grave and solemn obligation
for them. I will leave it to God to judge whether they did it properly.

[Winchester]

[quote name='thessalonian' date='09 July 2010 - 09:18 AM' timestamp='1278681532' post='2139829']
I did not answer the pole. [/quote]
Enter Phatmass, a magical world of talking poles.

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='thessalonian' date='09 July 2010 - 06:15 AM' timestamp='1278681354' post='2139827']
Christians sin? Really? Clearly you have no clue of Christianity. What people individually do during a just war
does not change whether the war is just or not or whether the leaders who call the war sin or not. When people like you have trouble resolving moral dilemas it is clear that you are lacking some logic and cognitive reasoning.
[/quote]

excuse me? people like me? lacking logic and cognitive reasoning? you sure have inferred a great deal about me from my single sentence.

at what point would the actions of the individual soldiers and leaders actually come into play with just war? do you have a convenient number? 50%? 63.2%? 21%?

and actually it went a good bit past just the individual "bad apples" doing the christian-on-christian killing. several large battles, including the siege of a predominantly christian city happened, mostly cause the higher up commanders got greedy and used the war as cover to loot places.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' date='09 July 2010 - 09:54 AM' timestamp='1278683661' post='2139842']
excuse me? people like me? lacking logic and cognitive reasoning? you sure have inferred a great deal about me from my single sentence.

[/quote]
I agree. Lots of words. He could have just said "Canadian."

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' date='09 July 2010 - 09:54 AM' timestamp='1278683661' post='2139842']
excuse me? people like me? lacking logic and cognitive reasoning? you sure have inferred a great deal about me from my single sentence.

at what point would the actions of the individual soldiers and leaders actually come into play with just war? do you have a convenient number? 50%? 63.2%? 21%?

and actually it went a good bit past just the individual "bad apples" doing the christian-on-christian killing. several large battles, including the siege of a predominantly christian city happened, mostly cause the higher up commanders got greedy and used the war as cover to loot places.
[/quote]


Hardly from one sentence or one post. I've read alot of your posts. I know what to expect when
interacting with you. A just war is like a marriage. It can go sour all it wants after the moment of declaration. It cannot become unjust because of the actions of those involved in the war. If the reasons for going to war are just, noble, and in line with Church teaching, the war is just. It's pretty simple.

Certainly the actions of those involved are gravely scandalous and historically significant in
carrying out the churches future mission. But it doesn't change the fact that the war was entered for just causes and should have been fought. The conscience of the king who declared it or the pope who supported it is clear. Now they may agonize over the actions of those they sent out. They may have an obligation to prosecute them. But aagain beside the point.

Edited July 10, 2010 by thessalonian

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='thessalonian' date='09 July 2010 - 07:47 PM' timestamp='1278730030' post='2140341']
Hardly from one sentence or one post. I've read alot of your posts. I know what to expect when
interacting with you.
[/quote]

aww, a secret admirer! sorry, i am already dating someone i met on PM, but you are a nice guy, i am sure you will meet someone else.


[quote]
A just war is like a marriage. It can go sour all it wants after the moment of declaration. It cannot become unjust because of the actions of those involved in the war. If the reasons for going to war are just, noble, and in line with Church teaching, the war is just. It's pretty simple.

Certainly the actions of those involved are gravely scandalous and historically significant in
carrying out the churches future mission. But it doesn't change the fact that the war was entered for just causes and should have been fought. The conscience of the king who declared it or the pope who supported it is clear. Now they may agonize over the actions of those they sent out. They may have an obligation to prosecute them. But aagain beside the point.
[/quote]

ok ok, sure. the Crusades might have begun the right way, and had the right intentions. that isnt really what i was referring to. As probably one of the more famous quotes "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" at what point after milk goes sour should you stop drinking it? sure it was ok when you bought it, and it being rotten now does not change that. but it is different now and is no longer good to drink.

my answer works a little better if the question was "were the crusades a good thing"

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='thessalonian' date='09 July 2010 - 09:47 PM' timestamp='1278730030' post='2140341']
Hardly from one sentence or one post. I've read alot of your posts. I know what to expect when
interacting with you.
[/quote]
Don't be hatin' on J-Lo.

He may be a heretic, but he is the best sort.

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='09 July 2010 - 08:44 PM' timestamp='1278733451' post='2140409']
Don't be hatin' on J-Lo.

He may be a heretic, but he is the best sort.
[/quote]

[IMG]http://imgur.com/j4Qff.jpg[/IMG]

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='09 July 2010 - 11:44 PM' timestamp='1278733451' post='2140409']
Don't be hatin' on J-Lo.

He may be a heretic, but he is the best sort.
[/quote]