Pregnancy

[scardella]

Okay, first off, this question is meant to be independent of the question "When does life begin?" I'm quite clear that life begins at conception and that deliberately killing the conceived baby, whether via abortion or abortifacient means is morally illicit.

If a woman knew that conception had occurred, but the egg has not implanted within her yet, is she pregnant? I guess the only legal ramifications of this might be in terms of things like RU-486. To ask the question in a different manner, does a woman whose fertilized egg fails to implant miscarry or just fail to implant?

The reason I ask is that the woman's body does not know that conception has occurred unless the egg is implanted. BTW, would someone with a medical background care to correct this if I'm wrong?

I feel like this question does not affect moral decisions, but I want to know what people think.

[StColette]

I believe that pregnancy begins at conception. We recognize that when someone has conceived a baby that even before implantation that baby is a living person and thus the person is pregnant. Pregnancy = conception.

I would say that if conception has occurred and implantation does not occur then it would be considered a miscarriage. We consider a miscarriage the loss of an unborn child. Again we recognize that a life begins at conception, so even if there was no implantation the conceived child is still a living person and is still considered a loss. This is why we consider the pill a form of an abortifacient because it keeps implantation from occurring. Some people will argue that conception does not take place until implantation. Science text books and doctors say otherwise. Implantation normally occurs between 10 to 16 days after conception.

The bodies of many women do not even recognize that they are pregnant after implantation has occurred. For some women it could take weeks to months before their bodies start acting or showing signs that it is carrying a child within it. So not even implantation can be a sure fire way of knowing you're pregnant or even your body knowing that you're pregnant.

Hope I didn't confuse anyone.

[picchick]

Conception occurs in the fallopian tube and as the baby travels don the tube, the cells divide and divide. Then implantation occus as St. Colette said.

[VeniteAdoremus]

[quote name='picchick' post='1902288' date='Jun 26 2009, 10:52 PM']Conception occurs in the fallopian tube and as the baby travels don the tube, the cells divide and divide. Then implantation occus as St. Colette said.[/quote]

Except if you're Mary - she conceived in her womb

I agree with the conception = pregnant idea. When there's a baby, and it's not on the outside, you're obviously pregnant

[Nihil Obstat]

If this is purely from a scientific perception, and the question of life is completely detached, then there's also a valid argument that the technical pregnancy starts when the implanted blastocyst (or is it gastrula?) starts releasing human chorionic gonadotropin to stop the endometrium from disintegrating.

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1904878' date='Jun 28 2009, 11:59 PM']If this is purely from a scientific perception, and the question of life is completely detached, then there's also a valid argument that the technical pregnancy starts when the implanted blastocyst (or is it gastrula?) starts releasing human chorionic gonadotropin to stop the endometrium from disintegrating.[/quote]

interesting.
1. can you explain the scientific jargon you are using?
2. why would you say it's a reasonable argument, scientifically speaking? im not being rhetorical or sarcastic etc, i genuinely want more info.

maybe i should say... explain the jargon, if it helps explain why u think it reasonabe.

Edited June 29, 2009 by dairygirl4u2c

[dairygirl4u2c]

also, i'm not sure the fertilized egg not being implanted, would be a 'miscarriage' as was said above, to most people.
for one, it's just not commonly thought of as miscarriage, so i dont know u can made that deduction. for two, half of all fertilized eggs don't get implanted. some of the ones who do, are miscarriages in the full sense of the word. so 'more than half of all pregnanies end in miscarriage', seems a little counter intuitive.

it looks more to me, that the poster who said that, thought it was self evident, to her, that that was the case that ya should call it miscarriage. and maybe she was extending that self evidency to everyone else, and genuinely thought it a valid extension?

i don't know. but i question whether it's a valid extension.

Edited June 29, 2009 by dairygirl4u2c

[Nihil Obstat]

Implantation is the process by which an embryo implants itself into the uterine wall, which is the endometrium. The endometrium has built itseld up from the effects of the hormone progesterone in the uterine cycle. Normally at the start of the new cycle, low levels of estrogen and progesterone will cause the thick endometrium to break down and be expelled.
However when a blastocyst implants on the endometrium, one of the layers (the chorion) will cause HCG (human chorionic gonadotropin), which maintains the corpus luteum in the ovaries. Maintaining the corpus luteum causes them to continue secreting progesterone and some estrogen, which is the reason the endometrium is thick in the first place.
My thought in this is that if we seperate it entirely from the question of when life begins, then it is a valid hypothesis that a pregnancy scientifically begins when certain hormones act on the female body to cause this more unusual state.

Of course it's equally valid to suggest that pregnancy begins when the fertilized child begins to grow, which is pretty much immediately, or when formerly haploid cells become diploid, meaning conception.

[Dan]

Wishing to err on the most conservative side...

When the mother's egg and the sperm join, each contributes their DNA. At this blending of the DNA, the child is neither the mother or father.

While the child is still quite far away from implantation, the child is a unique indivual ( 2 cells, 4 cells, 2048 cells, etc ).

[Sojourner]

[quote name='StColette' post='1902281' date='Jun 26 2009, 02:45 PM']I believe that pregnancy begins at conception. We recognize that when someone has conceived a baby that even before implantation that baby is a living person and thus the person is pregnant. Pregnancy = conception.

I would say that if conception has occurred and implantation does not occur then it would be considered a miscarriage. We consider a miscarriage the loss of an unborn child. Again we recognize that a life begins at conception, so even if there was no implantation the conceived child is still a living person and is still considered a loss. This is why we consider the pill a form of an abortifacient because it keeps implantation from occurring. Some people will argue that conception does not take place until implantation. Science text books and doctors say otherwise. Implantation normally occurs between 10 to 16 days after conception.

The bodies of many women do not even recognize that they are pregnant after implantation has occurred. For some women it could take weeks to months before their bodies start acting or showing signs that it is carrying a child within it. So not even implantation can be a sure fire way of knowing you're pregnant or even your body knowing that you're pregnant.

Hope I didn't confuse anyone.[/quote]
That's not entirely true. Your body might not manifest outward signs for a while that you're pregnant, but it knows that the baby is there once implantation starts. As soon as implantation occurs, you produce hCG, which is the hormone pregnancy tests test for. That's the big signal to all body systems that pregnancy is there. While the levels vary from woman to woman (and pregnancy to pregnancy) it is always there. You might be lucky and have no symptoms (like all those people on TLC who have no idea they're pregnant), but you probably will within a couple weeks of implantation.

Before that, the medical community is split about whether a fertilized egg constitutes pregnancy or not, from what I can tell. For myself, I'm not sure how I'd come down on it. If your fertilized egg, for whatever reason, did not implant and passed out through your normal period, you'd have no idea one way or the other. There would be absolutely no sign in your body, chemical or otherwise, that would indicate a pregnancy. You could still call it a miscarriage, though, I think, but you would just not really know unless you did tests on everything you passed every period. I would say that the fertilized egg is alive, that life begins at conception, but that pregnancy begins at implantation when the pregnancy hormone(s) begin being produced. Whether you know it or not has no impact on whether or not you're pregnant. I think the measurable changes in bodily chemistry would be the determining factor for me.

[philothea]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1905177' date='Jun 29 2009, 11:06 AM']I would say that the fertilized egg is alive, that life begins at conception, but that pregnancy begins at implantation when the pregnancy hormone(s) begin being produced. Whether you know it or not has no impact on whether or not you're pregnant. I think the measurable changes in bodily chemistry would be the determining factor for me.[/quote]
Agreed.

The woman's body has to be participating for there to be a pregnancy. Obviously, things like in-vitro fertilization don't constitute "pregnancy" until implantation. Same difference, IMO, until there's some physical connection.

[scardella]

[quote name='philothea' post='1905194' date='Jun 29 2009, 10:29 AM']The woman's body has to be participating for there to be a pregnancy. Obviously, things like in-vitro fertilization don't constitute "pregnancy" until implantation. Same difference, IMO, until there's some physical connection.[/quote]

Ooh... That's an interesting point.

[Nihil Obstat]

I'm uncomfortable answering the poll just because it's so close to being a life issue.... and yet.........

[scardella]

I think the key to the life issue is the fact that the conceived child, implanted or not, born or unborn is a human made in the image and likeness of God.

[StColette]

[quote name='scardella' post='1905468' date='Jun 29 2009, 04:35 PM']I think the key to the life issue is the fact that the conceived child, implanted or not, born or unborn is a human made in the image and likeness of God.[/quote]

Right, which is why I'm having difficulty saying that pregnancy begins at implantation rather than conception. I mean both my kiddos implanted, but before they did was I not pregnant? I associate conception with life and life with pregnancy. I mean if we say that a pregnancy does not begin until implantation aren't we treading on dangerous ground or a slippery slope. Lots of pro-abortion folks use the "pregnancy doesn't begin until implantation" thing to say that the morning after pill is permissible and not terminating a pregnancy. If it's not terminating a pregnancy then what is it terminating? I guess I just can't separate pregnancy with life and life with conception.