Time

[kafka]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1901213' date='Jun 25 2009, 10:30 AM']If God is not only outside of time, but the creator of time, and all prayer is directed towards God, then why not? The Last Supper celebrated the Crucifixion and Resurrection before they occured in time (for that matter, every Mass in a sense occurs outside of time) and Mary was protected from original sin by her Immaculate Conception by the graces of the same Crucifixion and Resurrection of her son. I wouldn't put any restrictions on the power of prayer to influence events at any point in time... doesn't mean I understand it, but understanding such mysteries is above my pay grade. [/quote]
I think you are making some very good points here Louisville


I think you brought up a good point Don John about the First Heaven having a beginning and an end. So I guess there could be something of metaphysical Time (or duration) existing there, although this is difficult to imagine since Heaven is also beyond Place, and Time and Place are closely linked as our physicists love to explain in the space/time model. In any case Heaven is with God who is Eternity, and to be with God is to be beyond all Time and Place. I'm not sure how these ideas could be reconciled, and perhaps they cant since at the core Heaven is mysterious.

I also like the speculation that once one dies, one is reunited with one's new body at the resurrection in a twinkling of an eye since Heaven is Timeless and Placeless. It is not as if one has to wait and wait and wait hundreds or thousands of earth years for the general resurrection I've actually thought about this myself before.

Also I believe a New Hell will be created for both the body and the soul. The first Hell is only for the soul.

{20:14} And Hell and death were cast into the pool of fire. This is the second death.


Good thoughts Don Juan.

Edited June 25, 2009 by kafka

[Don John of Austria]

I'm no expert on these things either, but I'd hesitate to consider this a sound assumption. I personally believe time -- as we know it -- is restricted to the creation or universe. Heaven and hell exist outside of the universe and purgatory may not be a place at all (for what little we actually know about it), so there is no passing of time among them. They simply are.

[color="#2E8B57"]Then how can they begin and end? God being one who is the Creator of time, has no beginning and no end but Hell had a Beginning, Heaven had a beginning, Purgatory had a beginning. Purgatory and Heaven, at least will have an End. How can they simply be if they have a specific begining and ending in time?[/color]


If God is not only outside of time, but the creator of time, and all prayer is directed towards God, then why not? The Last Supper celebrated the Crucifixion and Resurrection before they occured in time (for that matter, every Mass in a sense occurs outside of time) and Mary was protected from original sin by her Immaculate Conception by the graces of the same Crucifixion and Resurrection of her son. I wouldn't put any restrictions on the power of prayer to influence events at any point in time... doesn't mean I understand it, but understanding such mysteries is above my pay grade.


[color="#2E8B57"]But Mary was the exception and a big one, made necessary by God's plans for her and not instituted by the request of those of us in time. I would disagree with you about Mass, Mass is definantly in time, and the unity with Christ sacrifice makes that sacrifice current or constant. lots of thoughts here.... but back to time in the spiritual places.[/color]

Edited June 26, 2009 by Don John of Austria

[Didacus]

Don,

I'm struggling with a similar if not identical dillema. LEt me see if I undersatnd correctly;

If heaven is outside of time, how can we 'experience' heaven or beatific vision?


If the saints are outside of time, that is to say, they now see all things that were and will be as though they are in the present, then how is it that they can intervene if essentially all things are past for them?

[kafka]

I'm studying [i]Being and Time [/i]by Martin Heidegger this summer. He comes up with many amazingly original metaphysical insights. I'm hoping I might be able to apply some of his insights to the Faith, and perhaps they will lend some insight into Time and Eternity.

As far as the Mass is concerned, I'm of the theological opinion that it transcends Time. There is only one consecration of the Eucharist by Jesus Christ:

All the consecrations of the Eucharist, throughout Time and Place, are One Consecration. All the Masses, throughout Time and Place, are One Mass.

All the communions of a life-time are one communion. All the communions of all men now living are one communion. All the communions of all men, past and future, are one communion.

So, one who participates at the Eucharist transcends Time. He is truly and actually at the Last Supper.


As far as the passage of Time and the question of Place in Purgatory. I wrote an article about it a while back, so I will just take some quotes from it for all of you to consider:

[i]Is Purgatory a Place[/i]

“Incorporeal things are not in place after a manner known and familiar to us, in which way we say that bodies are properly in place. . .” –“Summa Theologica” Saint Thomas Aquinas

It seems Purgatory is not a Place, since it is not physical. It seems the Holy Souls in Purgatory are not in Time, since they are separated from their physical bodies. Yet Purgatory and the Holy Souls are created. All Creation of God has a beginning. With Creation is beginning, in Time and in Place.

“Time is the fixed ordering and separation of events into before and after. Place is the separation and ordering of things into here and there.” –“Time and Eternity” Ronald L Conte Jr.

Only God is Uncreated, is Eternity, is Simplicity, Undivided, and so on. People say, “Human souls are simple and have no parts.” Not absolutely so, since even when separated from their bodies, they are still created beings. Time and Place in a sense divides souls even in a non-physical way. “Let us make Man to our own image and likeness.” (Gen. 1:26) The simplicity of human souls is a mere reflection of the absolute Simplicity we call God who is beyond Time and Place.

Purgatory is created. In Purgatory the Holy Souls experience Time in a non-physical way. The passing of Time is measured by the change they undergo. In a sequence, at one point they have atoned for fewer sins than a following point. At one point they are less like Christ than a following point. This is the before and after of Time. This is the order and separation of Time, even in a non-physical realm. By nature, a non-physical realm is higher than a physical one; therefore Time in Purgatory is beyond Time on Earth. Some call Purgatorial Time: Eviternity!

Purgatory is a non-physical place. It is not Earth, not Hell, and not Heaven. Just as New York is not Paris. They are two different things, as Purgatory is different from Hell. The difference makes them separated and ordered into here and there. Hence, Earth, Purgatory, and Hell (but not Heaven!) is a Place even in a non-physical way. The only way to completely understand Time and Place in Purgatory is to experience it.

In Purgatory the Holy Souls are not yet with God. This is one reason why in Sacred Scripture (which included Limbo of the Fathers) is sometimes described as a “prison.” (1 Pet 3: 19, 20) As they atone for sins, part of the captivity is that they are still bound by Time, and Place. “And see if there might be in me the way of iniquity and lead me in the way of eternity.” (Ps 138: 54) More than ever they long to be with Eternity (God), but are still bound by Time, and Place as they atone for personal sins not made up for as they lived on Earth, and as they ultimately become more Christ-like than as they were on Earth."

from my article [i]Heaven and Purgatory[/i]


one last thing I want to mention for now. I like the terminology Heaven is beyond (or transcends) Time and Place better than Heaven is outside Time and Place. The reason is the Time and Place factor for Heaven can be considered in different ways for example Heaven is not only Timeless in the sense it is beyond Time, it is also Timeful in the sense that it is like all time put together at once.

[Lil Red]

+J.M.J.+
if there are other dimensions in time, do they know about Jesus Christ?

[kafka]

[quote name='Lil Red' post='1902154' date='Jun 26 2009, 12:22 PM']+J.M.J.+
if there are other dimensions in time, do they know about Jesus Christ? [/quote]
lol.

you mean particles existing in different dimensions or actual humans?

[Lil Red]

[quote name='kafka' post='1902163' date='Jun 26 2009, 10:30 AM']lol.

you mean particles existing in different dimensions or actual humans?

[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
ya know, like dimensions in tv shows or movies. or 'alternate realities' as some call them.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Lil Red' post='1902174' date='Jun 26 2009, 12:45 PM']+J.M.J.+
ya know, like dimensions in tv shows or movies. or 'alternate realities' as some call them.[/quote]


Those would be differant dimensions of space time. It is a question I have thought a lot about as I study cosmology, if the many worlds theory is true, it gets really sticky.



Of course I would say, all of them that God wants to know Jesus Christ, do. Which of course is not answering the question at all, is it?

But this is a differant question from the one about the Spiritual places.


The really odd question would be, If there are differant dimensions, and they have people in them, and those people are indeed extraordinarly similar to us, do they go to the Same Heaven, Hell and Purgatory, or do they have thier own?

[kafka]

[quote name='Lil Red' post='1902174' date='Jun 26 2009, 12:45 PM']+J.M.J.+
ya know, like dimensions in tv shows or movies. or 'alternate realities' as some call them.[/quote]
in sci-fic?

Actually in real physics Feynman's sum of histories theory seems to support a consistent history (reality) rather than an alternate histories (realites) idea since according to his equation the universe didnt just have a single history, it had every possible history of a space-time covering all of its own probabilities in the uncertanity principle of quantum mechanics.

I think I explained that sort of correctly

Edited June 26, 2009 by kafka

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Didacus' post='1902106' date='Jun 26 2009, 10:35 AM']Don,

I'm struggling with a similar if not identical dillema. LEt me see if I undersatnd correctly;

If heaven is outside of time, how can we 'experience' heaven or beatific vision?


If the saints are outside of time, that is to say, they now see all things that were and will be as though they are in the present, then how is it that they can intervene if essentially all things are past for them?[/quote]



well i am okay with putting aside the Beatific vision as a completly transcendent experiance. But the Saints issue is one I am particularly concerned with.

[scardella]

Aren't Heaven and Hell not created realities with an objective existence, but, rather, a state of being? That is, are they not are a state of relationship with God rather than objective spiritual realities?

Heaven is being in the full presence of and union with God, whereas Hell is the complete absence of God (excepting the grace of existence). In a similar manner, Purgatory and this life move are between the two, and there is only resolution when you become totally cut off from God at death (going to Hell) or are perfected by God's grace whether in this life or in Purgatory.

[kafka]

[quote name='scardella' post='1902192' date='Jun 26 2009, 01:06 PM']Aren't Heaven and Hell not created realities with an objective existence, but, rather, a state of being? That is, are they not are a state of relationship with God rather than objective spiritual realities?[/quote]
Heaven and Hell cannot be mere states of being. Heaven and Hell has to in some way 'contain' the angels and humans overwise theoretically there would be no seperation. There must be seperation even in the spiritual realms. If Heaven were a mere state of being one could experience Heaven on Earth which is impossible.

Edited June 26, 2009 by kafka

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='scardella' post='1902192' date='Jun 26 2009, 01:06 PM']Aren't Heaven and Hell not created realities with an objective existence, but, rather, a state of being? That is, are they not are a state of relationship with God rather than objective spiritual realities?

Heaven is being in the full presence of and union with God, whereas Hell is the complete absence of God (excepting the grace of existence). In a similar manner, Purgatory and this life move are between the two, and there is only resolution when you become totally cut off from God at death (going to Hell) or are perfected by God's grace whether in this life or in Purgatory.[/quote]


I would say not, both Heaven and Hell are objective spiritual realities. Hell is more than the negative punishment of seperation from God, it is also positive punishment and torment.

Similarly, Heaven is more than union with God, Christ and Mary and I assume Elijah ( and Enoch too perhaps), are their physically, they have thier body. This requires at least an objective spiritual reality.

Edited June 26, 2009 by Don John of Austria

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='kafka' post='1902194' date='Jun 26 2009, 01:11 PM']Heaven and Hell cannot be mere states of being. Heaven and Hell has to in some way 'contain' the angels and humans overwise theoretically there would be no seperation. There must be seperation even in the spiritual realms. If Heaven were a mere state of being one could experience Heaven on Earth which is impossible.[/quote]


Agree absolutely.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1902187' date='Jun 26 2009, 11:01 AM']Those would be differant dimensions of space time. It is a question I have thought a lot about as I study cosmology, if the many worlds theory is true, it gets really sticky.



Of course I would say, all of them that God wants to know Jesus Christ, do. Which of course is not answering the question at all, is it?

But this is a differant question from the one about the Spiritual places.


The really odd question would be, If there are differant dimensions, and they have people in them, and those people are indeed extraordinarly similar to us, do they go to the Same Heaven, Hell and Purgatory, or do they have thier own?[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
you make my head hurt.