Time

[Don John of Austria]

Okay, let me first say this is something that just occured to me. THis is NOT a fully formulated idea and I am not contending this as a set belief. My thoughts on this could certianly be incorrect, I am simply making a postulation.
Please discuss, and feel free to tell me why this is wrong if you believe it so.



Given --- God is outside of time. Nothing I am about to say applies to God Himself.


In the spiritual places Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory time must be experianced and pass at least in some way.

This must be because people in Hell experiance Hell, but will be resurrected and reunited with their bodies at the Resurrection, for the General Judgement.

This must be true because people in Heaven experiance the beatific vision but will return to Earth and be reunited with their bodies at the Resurrection, for the General Judgement.

This must be because people in Purgation experiance time----- they attend the purifying fires of purgation [i]until[/i] they are purified and then they go to Heaven. There can be no until, or change if there is not some experiance of time.

And the most telling. The Saints cannot intervene in the past for you. For example one cannot make a novena to St. Gerard that he intervene with God, so that ones mother not die in childbirth [i]after [/i]this has happened. However, if the dead did not experiance time this would mean nothing to them and such an intervention would be possible as the past and present would hold no meaning.


This experiancing of Time is temporary and will end when the Resurrection occurs and a New Heaven and New Earth are created. The New Creation will be without time.

Please be civil, agian this is just speculation.

Edited June 23, 2009 by Don John of Austria

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1899533' date='Jun 23 2009, 10:37 AM']Okay, let me first say this is something that just occured to me. THis is NOT a fully formulated idea and I am not contending this as a set belief. My thoughts on this could certianly be incorrect, I am simply making a postulation.
Please discuss, and feel free to tell me why this is wrong if you believe it so.



Given --- God is outside of time. Nothing I am about to say applies to God Himself.


In the spiritual places Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory time must be experianced and pass at least in some way.

This must be because people in Hell experiance Hell, but will be resurrected and reunited with their bodies at the Resurrection, for the General Judgement.

This must be true because people in Heaven experiance the beatific vision but will return to Earth and be reunited with their bodies at the Resurrection, for the General Judgement.

This must be because people in Purgation experiance time----- they attend the purifying fires of purgation [i]until[/i] they are purified and then they go to Heaven. There can be no until, or change if there is not some experiance of time.

And the most telling. The Saints cannot intervene in the past for you. For example one cannot make a novena to St. Gerard that he intervene with God, so that ones mother not die in childbirth [i]after [/i]this has happened. However, if the dead did not experiance time this would mean nothing to them and such an intervention would be possible as the past and present would hold no meaning.


This experiancing of Time is temporary and will end when the Resurrection occurs and a New Heaven and New Earth are created. The New Creation will be without time.

Please be civil, agian this is just speculation.[/quote]



Nothing?

Even after all that on the purgatory thread?

[dUSt]

I don't have time right now.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='dUSt' post='1900549' date='Jun 24 2009, 10:36 AM']I don't have time right now.[/quote]

lol

[scardella]

A random smattering of thoughts:
I think it's a general consensus that Purgatory is temporal.
The 4 last things are Death, Judgement, heaven and hell.
Heaven and Hell are eternal, but it is not clear how we would experience Heaven and Hell outside of an understanding of time.
God and Angels participate in temporal affairs.

[kafka]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1900547' date='Jun 24 2009, 10:33 AM']Nothing?

Even after all that on the purgatory thread?[/quote]
Just give me some 'time'

The problem is we've talked about this subject a lot, so when a brand new thread is made it takes a little extra motivation for me to discuss it again even though I love the subject of Time and Eternity.

I think you made a couple of good points. I will say right off the bat, I disagree with your statement that Heaven is temporal.

[Seven77]

Interesting. Sometimes I think about time like that... here's what I wonder:

if heaven is outside of time, as I believe i it to be so, then can it be that the Saints in heaven have their bodies 'already' and the general judgment has 'already happened' for them? because if there is no time in heaven that means there is no past present or future... there is only an eternal now. I think that Don John might be onto something--- maybe there is some kind of 'time' outside of time (not for God course, but for human beings in heaven, hell and purgatory). I don't think it's something that we are meant to grasp. I believe that time travel In the created universe is necessarily impossible. everything for us here is limited -- it has to be limited. We can't get our minds around it from here... but we must be able to on the other end. It's all pretty mind-boggling.

I hope I was able to build on the topic a little bit.

Ps:

Kafka: I don't think that Don John said" heaven is temporal" anywhere in the thread so far... if there is some kind of "time" in heaven ( for human beings) that doesn't necessarily mean heaven is temporal and not eternal.

Edited June 24, 2009 by Seven77

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='scardella' post='1900582' date='Jun 24 2009, 11:47 AM']A random smattering of thoughts:
I think it's a general consensus that Purgatory is temporal.

[color="#2E8B57"]Not according to the Purgatory thread. I didn't see anything like a concensus their.[/color][/quote]

[scardella]

That's because half the people there are Eastern Orthodox.

[Patrick]

[quote name='scardella' post='1900639' date='Jun 24 2009, 11:51 AM']That's because half the people there are Eastern Orthodox.[/quote]

That thread had some convincing Catholic sources posted by Catholics regarding Catholics not believing in purgatory-in-time.

[scardella]

[quote name='Patrick' post='1900646' date='Jun 24 2009, 01:57 PM']That thread had some convincing Catholic sources posted by Catholics regarding Catholics not believing in purgatory-in-time.[/quote]

Can you tell me which post? I didn't see an agreement besides an opinion by Louisville Fan. The article I linked to clearly stated that it was temporal.

[Patrick]

[quote name='scardella' post='1900661' date='Jun 24 2009, 12:17 PM']Can you tell me which post? I didn't see an agreement besides an opinion by Louisville Fan. The article I linked to clearly stated that it was temporal.[/quote]

Oh, I think I've made a mistake, by misunderstanding one of the sources. Thank you for pointing this out. I'll continue discussion in the Purgatory thread.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Seven77' post='1900608' date='Jun 24 2009, 12:45 PM']Interesting. Sometimes I think about time like that... here's what I wonder:

if heaven is outside of time, as I believe i it to be so, then can it be that the Saints in heaven have their bodies 'already' and the general judgment has 'already happened' for them? because if there is no time in heaven that means there is no past present or future... there is only an eternal now. I think that Don John might be onto something--- maybe there is some kind of 'time' outside of time (not for God course, but for human beings in heaven, hell and purgatory). I don't think it's something that we are meant to grasp. I believe that time travel In the created universe is necessarily impossible. everything for us here is limited -- it has to be limited. We can't get our minds around it from here... but we must be able to on the other end. It's all pretty mind-boggling.

I hope I was able to build on the topic a little bit.

Ps:

Kafka: I don't think that Don John said" heaven is temporal" anywhere in the thread so far... if there is some kind of "time" in heaven ( for human beings) that doesn't necessarily mean heaven is temporal and not eternal.[/quote]



Thank you. I have not said that Heaven is temproal. I have just said that time must be experianced in Heaven in some way.

[Don John of Austria]

Now that I have thought about it a bit.

Is not the current Heaven Temporal, at least in some way?


Heaven was created by God.

Heaven will be destroyed by God.


God will create a New Heaven and a New Earth.

These will be eternal.

Beginning and end date, seems plenty temporal. This does not mean it has time in the way we think of time but to have a beginning and an end seems definantly temporal. Unless you could somehow be temporary and still not temporal. Which is certianly possible when speaking about God's actions.


P.S. Ever noticed the Saved get a shinny New Heaven [i]and[/i] a New Earth and the Damned get the same old rusty Hell?

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1899533' date='Jun 23 2009, 11:37 AM']In the spiritual places Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory time must be experianced and pass at least in some way.[/quote]

I'm no expert on these things either, but I'd hesitate to consider this a sound assumption. I personally believe time -- as we know it -- is restricted to the creation or universe. Heaven and hell exist outside of the universe and purgatory may not be a place at all (for what little we actually know about it), so there is no passing of time among them. They simply are.

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1899533' date='Jun 23 2009, 11:37 AM']And the most telling. The Saints cannot intervene in the past for you. For example one cannot make a novena to St. Gerard that he intervene with God, so that ones mother not die in childbirth [i]after [/i]this has happened. However, if the dead did not experiance time this would mean nothing to them and such an intervention would be possible as the past and present would hold no meaning.[/quote]

If God is not only outside of time, but the creator of time, and all prayer is directed towards God, then why not? The Last Supper celebrated the Crucifixion and Resurrection before they occured in time (for that matter, every Mass in a sense occurs outside of time) and Mary was protected from original sin by her Immaculate Conception by the graces of the same Crucifixion and Resurrection of her son. I wouldn't put any restrictions on the power of prayer to influence events at any point in time... doesn't mean I understand it, but understanding such mysteries is above my pay grade.

Edited June 25, 2009 by LouisvilleFan