Heresy

[Gregorius]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1898015' date='Jun 21 2009, 10:03 PM']An ecclesiastical court never executed anyone. Heretics were always turned over to secular authorities to be executed. For example, you see in the trial of Jan Hus at the Council of Constance: "This holy synod of Constance, seeing that God's church has nothing more that it can do, relinquishes John Hus to the judgment of the secular authority and decrees that he is to be relinquished to the secular court."

By the way, I would not argue that all heretics in all times should be executed. According to the decree the proposition "That heretics be burned is against the will of the Spirit" is condemned. Obviously the Holy Spirit, who is God, does not actively will sin but merely permits it. If it was not always contrary to God's will to that heretics be executed in Leo X's time, it cannot have always been immoral then.[/quote]
Oh, if this then is merely an issue of state authorities executing people, putting charges aside, the church has always taught that capital punishment was always an option if said individual was a clear and present danger to society and there were no other effective means of dealing with said individual. The Church has generally respected the laws of the various nations, even if they don't agree with them all. Law is law. Killing shouldn't be first option, of course, and now it no longer has to be an option.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Gregorius' post='1898039' date='Jun 21 2009, 10:20 PM']Oh, if this then is merely an issue of state authorities executing people, putting charges aside, the church has always taught that capital punishment was always an option if said individual was a clear and present danger to society and there were no other effective means of dealing with said individual. The Church has generally respected the laws of the various nations, even if they don't agree with them all. Law is law. Killing shouldn't be first option, of course, and now it no longer has to be an option.[/quote]

I am aware that capital punishment is morally acceptable in certain circumstances. This thread is specifically about capital punishment for the crime of heresy.

[son_of_angels]

It would be morally permissable, provided that the crime was gravely harmful to the society itself, the heretic was unrepentant or recidivist, and there was no better solution. Many occassions for these preconditions were in effect in the ancient world.

It is not entirely true to say that the Church NEVER ordered an execution through an ecclesiastical court. However, in most cases, the Church had no need, because the criminal would confess and repent. The Church would hand them over to the state with the recommendation for a moderate penalty, with the understanding that death would be the civil penalty. However, for heretics who were constantly returning to their previous sin, the Church did occassionally give the sentence themselves, even if they had to rely on civil authorities to carry it out (the Church did not generally have its own executioners).

Different approaches for different times and societies. There are no, or few, societies in which such methods could be employed for benefit, and the era of mass communications and global expansion means that whatever action we take is no longer a matter of merely local discipline. When there is a "Bhutan" of Catholicism, maybe we can talk about this as a legitimate option. In the meanwhile, why worry about judging our elders?

[heavenseeker]

going to go with no on this

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='heavenseeker' post='1898350' date='Jun 22 2009, 03:46 AM']going to go with no on this[/quote]

Are you saying that you disagree with the Magisterium?

[heavenseeker]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1898352' date='Jun 22 2009, 03:47 AM']Are you saying that you disagree with the Magisterium?[/quote]
if the Magisterium is saying that it was right to burn people then yes... how do we know that those that got burned actually "deserved" it? plus such acts would be frowned on now, so why should it have been ok then

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='heavenseeker' post='1898356' date='Jun 22 2009, 03:55 AM']if the Magisterium is saying that it was right to burn people then yes... how do we know that those that got burned actually "deserved" it? plus such acts would be frowned on now, so why should it have been ok then[/quote]

As you can see in the poll the Pope condemned "That heretics be burned is against the will of the Spirit" as "in opposition to Catholic truth." (cf. Pope Leo X, [i]Exsurge Domine[/i])

When heretics were executed in the past, they had professed heresy in public (e.g. had written a heretical book, been notorious for heretical sermons), so determining that someone was guilty wasn't terribly difficult.

The reason why executing someone for heresy wouldn't be beneficial now is because, not only do we have a jail system actually capable of containing criminals, but executing heretics wouldn't stop the spread of heresy now. In fact, for the execution of heretics to be beneficial to society at all, almost everyone must be Catholic.

[heavenseeker]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1898358' date='Jun 22 2009, 04:01 AM']As you can see in the poll the Pope condemned "That heretics be burned is against the will of the Spirit" as "in opposition to Catholic truth." (cf. Pope Leo X, [i]Exsurge Domine[/i])

When heretics were executed in the past, they had professed heresy in public (e.g. had written a heretical book, been notorious for heretical sermons), so determining that someone was guilty wasn't terribly difficult.

The reason why executing someone for heresy wouldn't be beneficial now is because, not only do we have a jail system actually capable of containing criminals, but executing heretics wouldn't stop the spread of heresy now. In fact, for the execution of heretics to be beneficial to society at all, almost everyone must be Catholic.[/quote]
so you got upset and asked me if i disagreed for nothing? what a waist of my time, the act its self was condemned by the Pope

[Resurrexi]

Leo X was not in principle opposed to burning at the stake. Pope Leo said that the thesis of Martin Luther which states that it is against God's will for heretics to be executed is erroneous.

In short, Leo X condemned the proposition that executing heretics is always immoral.

I don't know how you can have "a [i]waist [/i]of your time." Do you have a watch that you wear like a belt rather than on your wrist? Edited June 22, 2009 by Resurrexi

[heavenseeker]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1898361' date='Jun 22 2009, 04:12 AM']

Leo X was not in principle opposed to burning at the stake. Pope Leo said that the thesis of Martin Luther which states that it is against God's will for heretics to be executed is erroneous.


I don't know how you can have "a [i]waist [/i]of your time." Do you have a watch that you wear like a belt rather than on your wrist?[/quote]
your quotes are miss leading. if it was luther that said it then luther was right about something burning at the stake is wrong


and dont start getting all smart ass with me because i said waist

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='heavenseeker' post='1898365' date='Jun 22 2009, 04:19 AM']your quotes are miss leading. if it was luther that said it then luther was right about something burning at the stake is wrong[/quote]

My quotes are not at all misleading. After Luther's [i]Ninety-Five Theses[/i] was published, Pope Leo X, condemned forty-one of those theses in the bull [url="http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Leo10/l10exdom.htm"][i]Exsurge Domine[/i][/url].

The Pope listed the 41 erroneous theses. (Among the condemned theses was the thesis "That heretics be burned is against the will of the Spirit.") At the end of the list the Holy Father wrote wrote, "With the advice and consent of these our venerable brothers, with mature deliberation on each and every one of the above theses, and by the authority of almighty God, the blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and our own authority, we condemn, reprobate, and reject completely each of these theses or errors as either heretical, scandalous, false, offensive to pious ears or seductive of simple minds, and against Catholic truth. By listing them, we decree and declare that all the faithful of both sexes must regard them as condemned, reprobated, and rejected."

Edited June 22, 2009 by Resurrexi

[heavenseeker]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1898367' date='Jun 22 2009, 04:27 AM']My quotes are not at all misleading. After Luther's [i]Ninety-Five Theses[/i] was published, Pope Leo X, condemned forty-one of those theses in the bull [url="http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Leo10/l10exdom.htm"][i]Exsurge Domine[/i][/url].

The Pope listed the 41 erroneous theses. (Among the condemned theses was the thesis "That heretics be burned is against the will of the Spirit.") At the end of the list the Holy Father wrote wrote, "With the advice and consent of these our venerable brothers, with mature deliberation on each and every one of the above theses, and by the authority of almighty God, the blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and our own authority, we condemn, reprobate, and reject completely each of these theses or errors as either heretical, scandalous, false, offensive to pious ears or seductive of simple minds, and against Catholic truth. By listing them, we decree and declare that all the faithful of both sexes must regard them as condemned, reprobated, and rejected."[/quote]
yes i knew about hte whole 95 and 41 blah blah. im saying how you quoted it was confusing whatever. point is burning = bad. the end.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='heavenseeker' post='1898369' date='Jun 22 2009, 04:32 AM']yes i knew about hte whole 95 and 41 blah blah. im saying how you quoted it was confusing whatever. point is burning = bad. the end.[/quote]

That's not what the Pope said. The Pope said it's wrong to say "burning = bad."

Edited June 22, 2009 by Resurrexi

[heavenseeker]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1898370' date='Jun 22 2009, 04:36 AM']That's not what the Pope said. The Pope said it's wrong to say "burning = bad."[/quote]
and the Pope can say something and be wrong. so just because the Pope said something doesnt make it morally right

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='heavenseeker' post='1898371' date='Jun 22 2009, 04:40 AM']and the Pope can say something and be wrong. so just because the Pope said something doesnt make it morally right[/quote]

We are not allowed to disagree with the Pope when he exercises his authentic Magisterium.

Edited June 22, 2009 by Resurrexi