Marie-Therese Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 [quote name='OraProMe' post='1900453' date='Jun 24 2009, 12:58 AM']Finally, I'd honestly like anyone to answer. If God is Love as the bible says, why would He see anything wrong with the expression of any kind of self-sacrificing, edifying love? Regardless of who it's between.[/quote] Ora, I think this question points to the central axis of your struggle. The answer is simple and complex as well, because it is a fundamental principle shaded in degrees. God is Love. He does not (as I presume through my understanding and Church guidance) want anything BUT love between His creatures, because we must love others as He has commanded us. However, the distinction is in the type of love. Fr. Brian's suggestion of reading Deus Caritas Est is a very good one, because it distinguishes between the varying degrees of love. As a person you are called to love everyone; you should love those men in your life as brothers and children of God (agape love). For whatever reason your natural tendencies to find an object of romantic or sexual feelings (eros love) has tended toward men. God made romantic relationships between men and women to intertwine both of those types of love in a union that would lead to the perpetuation of creation. It is a very SPECIFIC relationship with a goal. Romantic love is a gift of God that is given as a grace. Most of us tend to believe that love is something we "fall into." It is nothing like that, nor is every person intended for the romantic marital union. That is a hard truth to swallow when you desire the love and companionship of another person. The human ability to love is a fundamental aspect of who we are, the children of the Most High who were created specifically for that purpose. We seek out love because we are built that way. Human love, however, truly cannot find its completion in human relationships. Your natural orientation is contradictory to the specific path God created for this relationship to follow. Why is that? We cannot know. I can think how frustrating that must be to you. As hard as it is to be told that what you want is contrary to Truth, in order to be faithful to your God, you must submit to that. In saying that, there is now open a wide path which I can imagine you are already looking down. However, you cannot make progress until you let go of the anger you hold over having dreams that cannot be fulfilled in the way you imagined they would. You CAN experience all-encompassing love. You CAN find companionship. However, you must place yourself squarely in the hands of God and let Him lead you to it. Unless you really, fully let your reservations go and trust Him, you will always harbor these feelings of resentment that He won't let you have what other people have. You have to be OK with knowing that He wants something else for you. That's the best I can do...I pray for you and for your peace of heart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marie-Therese Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 (edited) Edit: double post. Edited June 24, 2009 by Marie-Therese Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marie-Therese Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 (edited) Edit: triple post. Board going nuts. LOL Edited June 24, 2009 by Marie-Therese Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norseman82 Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 [quote name='OraProMe' post='1900453' date='Jun 24 2009, 12:58 AM']Finally, I'd honestly like anyone to answer. If God is Love as the bible says, why would He see anything wrong with the expression of any kind of self-sacrificing, edifying love? Regardless of who it's between.[/quote] This is the easiest question of all to answer: because God indicated that those kinds of "love" are wrong! It's in the Bible itself - see Romans 1. What you are talking about is not self-sacrificing love, but rather unnatural lust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OraProMe Posted June 25, 2009 Author Share Posted June 25, 2009 (edited) [code][/code][quote name='Norseman82' post='1900926' date='Jun 24 2009, 07:50 PM']This is the easiest question of all to answer: because God indicated that those kinds of "love" are wrong! It's in the Bible itself - see Romans 1. What you are talking about is not self-sacrificing love, but rather unnatural lust.[/quote] You think that all homosexual relationships revolve around sex? Right. (I've already explained that the scriptural condemnations of homosexuality are more likely cultural than theological, especially given the vast differences between the behaviour the bible is talking about and the behaviour I am talking about.) Edited June 25, 2009 by OraProMe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norseman82 Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 [quote name='OraProMe' post='1900930' date='Jun 24 2009, 08:59 PM'][code][/code] You think that all homosexual relationships revolve around sex? Right. (I've already explained that the scriptural condemnations of homosexuality are more likely cultural than theological, especially given the vast differences between the behaviour the bible is talking about and the behaviour I am talking about.)[/quote] Well, what behavior are you talking about??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maggyie Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 [quote name='OraProMe' post='1900930' date='Jun 24 2009, 09:59 PM'][code][/code] You think that all homosexual relationships revolve around sex? Right. (I've already explained that the scriptural condemnations of homosexuality are more likely cultural than theological, especially given the vast differences between the behaviour the bible is talking about and the behaviour I am talking about.)[/quote] Well, see, the Church (and the Bible) have no problem with the elements of homosexual relationships that [i]don't[/i] revolve around sex. Ultimately Christ calls us to love EVERYONE with the same self-sacrificing love. Nobody has any problem with a man caring for another man. Bl. John Henry Newman had a deep relationship like that - he was even buried with the guy, that's how much he loved him! God clearly expresses through the sacred scripture, Tradition, and the Church, that He does have a problem when human beings misuse sex. Sexual love can only be [i]true[/i] love when it has the potential to be life-giving. That's how we were made, how our bodies were designed - that we propogate ourselves and give birth to the next generation, through an act of love. And this mirrors the origional act of the Creator, who created through and because of His love. It's amazing how He has left behind this "clue" to His own behavior as part of our biological system. When you separate life from love, it may feel good, and it may feel like love, but it's not true love at all. I am praying for you because it took me a long time to understand that, too, and now that I do it's as clear as day to me and I can't believe I ever felt differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 (edited) [quote name='OraProMe' post='1900455' date='Jun 24 2009, 01:05 AM']There is no comparison between the vices you've mentioned and a long term relationship. Look, please don't post here again. I've gone over this stuff with you before and the manner in which you deliver your opinion really bugs me. Point is, that's not what this thread is for so could you please...not? Check your pms [/quote] There is indeed a comparison in as far as they are all things contrary to God's will for rightly ordered human behavior. Being part of a "long term relationship" does not in itself make an action moral or right. A "straight" couple that indulges in anal and/or oral sodomy rather than proper sexual intercourse is little better than a homosexual "relationship" in the eyes of the Church, no matter how "loving and caring" they might otherwise be. The same with a contraceptive union, for that matter. All these activities violate the sacred purpose of human sexuality as ordained by God, and taught by His Church. People can and do make excuses and justifications for every kind of sin. Most of us have inclinations to sins we would like to justify for ourselves, but that does not make them right. Really, homosexuality is no different than any other sin in that regard. It just happens to be the sin you personally struggle with. Others of us struggle with other sins. Don't give up the Good Fight. And I can post in whatever thread I choose, thank you very much. This is a public forum, and you can't dictate that people not post just because you don't like their views on a topic. Phatmass is a Catholic forum, so if you make posts here which say the moral teaching of the Catholic Faith is wrong, you should not be surprised or offended by opposition. The purpose of this forum is to Preach Holy Apostolic Truth, not to serve as personal therapy or validation for you. If you seek private counseling, a public internet forum is not the place for it. If you or anyone else publicly attacks the teachings of the Church on here, I will do my Christian duty to counter them with Catholic truth. I'm sorry if what I'm saying may be repetitive, but that is only because of your repetitive attacks on Catholic moral teaching. What I say may have no effect on you, but it could, God willing, have an effect on third parties who may be reading. If you really can't bear to read my posts, there's an "ignore" button you use, and you won't ever have to read what I post on here again. God bless, and keep up the Good Fight. Edited June 25, 2009 by Socrates Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 [quote name='Maggie' post='1900945' date='Jun 24 2009, 09:20 PM']Well, see, the Church (and the Bible) have no problem with the elements of homosexual relationships that [i]don't[/i] revolve around sex.[/quote] If they [i]don't[/i] revolve around sex, then they cease to be homosexual relationships. There's nothing wrong with strong friendships or brotherly (or sisterly) love between members of the same sex. But that's different than homosexuality. Let's not keep confusing terms. It's not strong, lasting friendships or brotherly love that the Church has a problem with; it's perverted sexual activity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 [quote name='Socrates' post='1901024' date='Jun 25 2009, 12:15 AM']If they [i]don't[/i] revolve around sex, then they cease to be homosexual relationships. There's nothing wrong with strong friendships or brotherly (or sisterly) love between members of the same sex. But that's different than homosexuality. Let's not keep confusing terms. It's not strong, lasting friendships or brotherly love that the Church has a problem with; it's perverted sexual activity.[/quote] A homosexual relationship with no sex is...well, a friendship. It could no more be considered homosexual than a relationship with married man who is friends with a woman could be considered adulterous relationship. Good call, Winnie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alimarie_11 Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 A homosexual relationship with no sex is...well, a friendship. i definitely disagree with that. and man and a women can be in love, but not have sex, and its more than mere friend ship just because two people are of the same sex, doesn't mean that they are incapable of love for eachother, without sex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 [quote name='OraProMe' post='1900930' date='Jun 24 2009, 08:59 PM'](I've already explained that the scriptural condemnations of homosexuality are more likely cultural than theological, especially given the vast differences between the behaviour the bible is talking about and the behaviour I am talking about.)[/quote] The scriptural condemnations of homosexuality are quite clear and unambiguous. St. Paul, the Apostle to the Gentiles who "became all things for all men" did not condemn homosexual activity for "cultural" reasons, but for moral reasons. This fact and the reasoning behind it is made quite clear and explicit in Romans 1. This "cultural" "interpretation" is an [i]extremely[/i] recent novelty invented for the sole purpose of trying to justify homosexual behavior in the face of scriptural condemnation. It directly violates a thousand years of consistent Catholic teaching on the topic (as well as the actual words of Scripture). There is no vast difference between homosexual behavior in Biblical times and today. The same sins were committed then as are committed now. Human nature and what is sinful does not change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' post='1901030' date='Jun 25 2009, 12:19 AM'] A homosexual relationship with no sex is...well, a friendship. It could no more be considered homosexual than a relationship with married man who is friends with a woman could be considered adulterous relationship. Good call, Winnie.[/quote] Um . . . I'm Socrates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' post='1901030' date='Jun 24 2009, 11:19 PM'] A homosexual relationship with no sex is...well, a friendship. Good call, Winnie.[/quote] I would call a relationship between two persons of the same sex in which the two merely "made out" with each other a homosexual relationship... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heavenseeker Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 i pray that you will find the light of Christ and the love and joy in living out God's will over worldly pleasures. it is hard for everyone to say yes to God's will at times but that is what will bring the greatest good, happiness and pleasure to your life in the long run. like i said i will pray for you to understand and be able to live by the Churches stances Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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