I Feel Like I Owe You Guys.....

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='OraProMe' post='1900133' date='Jun 23 2009, 08:28 PM']But sadly, for me, the Church being wrong on this is forcing me to re-evaluate a lot of stuff.[/quote]

But She's not.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='OraProMe' post='1900133' date='Jun 23 2009, 08:28 PM']Resurexxi,[/quote]

There's only one [i]x[/i] in my username.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1900173' date='Jun 23 2009, 08:49 PM']But She's not.[/quote]
This.

[Norseman82]

Regarding my last post, I was not trying to debate; rather, I was trying tell Gregorius in a charitable and non-offensive way to shut up, because his use of the word "hating" is a standard tactic of the PC/gay rights agendists to attempt to shut orthodox Catholics up, and I was not going to stand for it.

[quote name='OraProMe' post='1900133' date='Jun 23 2009, 08:28 PM']The troubling thing is, despite my efforts, I cannot understand how homosexuality is a sin. If I honestly thought it was a sin I'd gladly submit, but I cannot. I tried living the Churches teaching while struggling with it internally and found I could not. I just felt like such a hypocrite and as if I was reducing my faith to blind obedience.[/quote]

Repeat over and over again:

"What the senses fail to fathom
Let the grasp of faith assent"

[Theologian in Training]

[quote name='OraProMe' post='1900133' date='Jun 23 2009, 09:28 PM']Marie-Therese,
THankyou. Well said

Resurexxi,
If you want to discuss this in the debate section feel free to make a thread and I'll discuss it with you. It's got to do with cultural context, adaption, biology et cetera. I'm pretty sure you know that this wasn't a decision based on emotion, so I don't know why you said that.




I wouldn't say I'm blaming the magisterium for anything, Father. I love the Church and Her teachings. The troubling thing is, despite my efforts, I cannot understand how homosexuality is a sin. If I honestly thought it was a sin I'd gladly submit, but I cannot. I tried living the Churches teaching while struggling with it internally and found I could not. I just felt like such a hypocrite and as if I was reducing my faith to blind obedience.

Ofcourse, I'm still praying and attending Mass. But sadly, for me, the Church being wrong on this is forcing me to re-evaluate a lot of stuff.[/quote]

My bishop, in his typical manner, surrounded by bishops and civil officials, pointed to a lamp, said: "look at that lamp over there, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know how that lamp lights."

I don't mean any offense by that, but, one of God's commands to Adam and Eve was to be "fruitful and multiply," a same sex relationship frustrates that command, because, sexual intercourse, by its very nature implies that. It is no coincidence that when a man and woman come together (in the marriage bed) that the potential for life exists. God has made us co-creators, that is why we call it "procreation" because with that command came that responsibility. Like it or not, a homosexual relationship frustrates that exact design, just as contraception does the same.

It is not that the Church is obsessed with sex, but when God gives us a command, we do well to listen to His command, to be responsive to the one who created us. I think, sometimes, we tend to forget that we are dependent people, and, by the fact that we have been created we have a responsibility to God. He who loves us more than we can possibly imagine, one whose love is greater than any human love. In fact, marriage, by its very nature, is a dim comparison to the love that awaits us. It looks forward to it, and gets a glimpse of that, but there is much more to love than being with someone. That is what God teaches us, that is what He shows us, and that is what is possible.

I don't know what it is like to love another man, because, quite simply, I am a heterosexual male, yet, I can never be married, I can never know "marital love," but I am not lonely, as one priest once put it, when asked the same question, he said: "I walk daily among the family of the saints, those in Heaven, I can never be alone, with that knowledge, with that love."

I think you need to understand what love is. I mean that with all respect, because I am not sure you are entirely sure what love truly is and of what it truly entails.

And, btw, hypocrisy is different than what you are going through, you are going through a struggle, that is not hypocrisy, that is the stuff that saints are made of.

God bless

Fr. Brian

Edited June 24, 2009 by Theologian in Training

[ironmonk]

What is the meaning of life?

What is common to all things living?

We all die... Everything dies... the common thread that binds all living things together.

Does the meaning of our life have something to do with the fact that we all will die?

I think that meaning of our lives is to prepare for death... specifically the after life.

So many people have told me "y[i]ou have to do what makes you happy[/i]". I think those people are grossly mistaken.. What if what makes me happy is wrong? There are many people I know that think having sex with as many strangers as possible makes them happy... there are people that think that stealing makes them happy... should they do what makes them happy? If what makes me happy is wrong then I have to not do what makes me happy and become happy in doing something else.... If what I think makes me happy could send me to hell, then in reality it's not really making me happy, but fooling me with a lie.

Happy is a state of mind and an outlook on life...

[b]We "have" to do what is right.[/b] ...that is if our goal is to reach Heaven, "[i]we have to do what is right[/i]".What is right? That which makes God happy...


Here is an article that has helped a few of my friends who experience same sex attraction:
[url="http://www.cathmed.org/publications/homosexuality.htm"]http://www.cathmed.org/publications/homosexuality.htm[/url]


I've seen many stories of people who lived a homosexual lifestyle, turned their life toward God and then found love with someone of the opposite sex. Loneliness is only temporary. This life is only temporary. Knowing we are in God's grace and staying in it will last forever.


God Bless & You're in our prayers,
ironmonk

Edited June 24, 2009 by ironmonk

[Socrates]

[quote name='OraProMe' post='1900133' date='Jun 23 2009, 08:28 PM']Ofcourse, I'm still praying and attending Mass. But sadly, for me, the Church being wrong on this is forcing me to re-evaluate a lot of stuff.[/quote]
Since when are you and your opinions the ultimate arbitrator of what is right and wrong?
Do you claim to have greater moral authority than the Church?
(and don't even start that "primacy of conscience" claptrap again)

What if I were to declare the Church wrong on murder, theft, adultery, what have you?
Would my opinion (or "primacy of conscience") carry any weight?

We're all fallen, and we all struggle, to greater or lesser degrees, with inclinations to sin.
And it's not the same sin for every person.
Some are inclined to promiscuous sex, any number of unnatural vices, or to porn/masturbation. Others to drunkenness, abusiveness/violence, or habitual lying.

Just because something "feels good" doesn't mean it should be done.
Morality is about conforming our wills to Christ's as taught by His Church, not about conforming the Church's laws to our will.
"Thy will, not mine be done."

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Theologian in Training' post='1900258' date='Jun 23 2009, 08:40 PM']I don't mean any offense by that, but, one of God's commands to Adam and Eve was to be "fruitful and multiply," a same sex relationship frustrates that command, because, sexual intercourse, by its very nature implies that. It is no coincidence that when a man and woman come together (in the marriage bed) that the potential for life exists. God has made us co-creators, that is why we call it "procreation" because with that command came that responsibility. Like it or not, a homosexual relationship frustrates that exact design, just as contraception does the same.

It is not that the Church is obsessed with sex, but when God gives us a command, we do well to listen to His command, to be responsive to the one who created us. I think, sometimes, we tend to forget that we are dependent people, and, by the fact that we have been created we have a responsibility to God. He who loves us more than we can possibly imagine, one whose love is greater than any human love. In fact, marriage, by its very nature, is a dim comparison to the love that awaits us. It looks forward to it, and gets a glimpse of that, but there is much more to love than being with someone. That is what God teaches us, that is what He shows us, and that is what is possible.

I don't know what it is like to love another man, because, quite simply, I am a heterosexual male, yet, I can never be married, I can never know "marital love," but I am not lonely, as one priest once put it, when asked the same question, he said: "I walk daily among the family of the saints, those in Heaven, I can never be alone, with that knowledge, with that love."

I think you need to understand what love is. I mean that with all respect, because I am not sure you are entirely sure what love truly is and of what it truly entails.

And, btw, hypocrisy is different than what you are going through, you are going through a struggle, that is not hypocrisy, that is the stuff that saints are made of.

God bless

Fr. Brian[/quote]

Is a woman who is infertile unable to get married then, Father? What about when advanced age means they can no longer have children, does that mean they cannot have sex with their husband or wife? What about the Rhythm method that the Church promotes? That too seems like a form of contraception.

Sexuality, heterosexual or homosexual, is an integral part of us and is largely un-alterable, atleast without significant psychological harm. Rather than being caused by paternal problems, nurture or trouble befriending male peers (as has been said here) scientific evidence concludes that homosexuality & bisexuality are part of the evolutionary diversity of humanity. Homosexual activity, not just sex but also courtship and child rearing, has been studied in over 1 500 species of animals none of whom suffer from original sin, family problems or bad nurturing.

Why would God, who's image we are made in, create homosexuals if they were at odds with His will? Does the all-loving God create human beings with a desire to love and be loved by members of the same sex then determine that these feelings are disordered and cannot be acted on? That's not the God I worship. The God I worship desires nothing more than my salvation.

The Catechism states that the Churches opposition to homosexuality is based on scripture. Very few and sketchy scriptural references which need to be interpreted in their historical context. Sodom was not full of loving, caring same-sex couples. It was, more often than not, fuelled by alcohol, promiscuity and adultery. The biblical understanding of homosexuality and the modern understanding of homosexuality are almost completely different. Infact what was called homosexuality then would be known as pedastry now.

Finally, I'd honestly like anyone to answer. If God is Love as the bible says, why would He see anything wrong with the expression of any kind of self-sacrificing, edifying love? Regardless of who it's between.

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1900446' date='Jun 23 2009, 11:35 PM']Since when are you and your opinions the ultimate arbitrator of what is right and wrong?
Do you claim to have greater moral authority than the Church?
(and don't even start that "primacy of conscience" claptrap again)

What if I were to declare the Church wrong on murder, theft, adultery, what have you?
Would my opinion (or "primacy of conscience") carry any weight?

We're all fallen, and we all struggle, to greater or lesser degrees, with inclinations to sin.
And it's not the same sin for every person.
Some are inclined to promiscuous sex, any number of unnatural vices, or to porn/masturbation. Others to drunkenness, abusiveness/violence, or habitual lying.

Just because something "feels good" doesn't mean it should be done.
Morality is about conforming our wills to Christ's as taught by His Church, not about conforming the Church's laws to our will.
"Thy will, not mine be done."[/quote]

There is no comparison between the vices you've mentioned and a long term relationship.
Look, please don't post here again. I've gone over this stuff with you before and the manner in which you deliver your opinion really bugs me. Point is, that's not what this thread is for so could you please...not?

Check your pms

Edited June 24, 2009 by OraProMe

[jiyoung]

Hey, OPM--a couple things.

- A woman who is declared clinically infertile is not necessarily so, and there are examples in Scripture of women who were barren but conceived--Sarah, Hannah, Elizabeth... I don't honestly know anything about whether they wouldn't be allowed to marry, but even clinical infertility doesn't necessarily mean complete sterility.

- With old age, see above with Sarah and Elizabeth. Though they were well past their child-bearing years, the actual act of intercourse was open to life, and bore fruit. I recently sang at the wedding of an older couple. They're probably not going to have children, but they won't be contracepting--and they could still leave it open so that they could.

- The Rhythm method is obsolete, I believe--I think you're talking about NFP. The problem with contraception is that it puts an actual physical block, which works against what God has created. With NFP, you're actually working with the way God created your fertility: a woman's cycle goes through periods where she is more or less likely to conceive. This system can also be used by couples who are trying to conceive--again, working with the way God created our cycles. It remains open to life, and if God wants to mess around with you and have you conceive even on a day when you shouldn't be ovulating, He could. NFP is more reliable than other birth control methods, since it actually works with the way the body works, but you can still conceive even if you're practicing it--as Micah and Jennie may be able to attest.


I want to add that the biggest thing that has helped me through my own struggles with Catholic teachings is this assurance that the Holy Spirit will guide the Church into all truth. The Church is infallible; I am not. Understanding this, I realized that if I disagreed with the Church on something, it was much more likely that I was wrong, and not the Church. I should be fides quaerens intellectum--faith seeking understanding. There must be one body in which the fullness of the truth is contained--how are we to believe that this God who loves us so much that He would die for us would leave us here without illumination, without guidance, without leadership? He would never leave us orphans. So, like it or not, if you disagree with the Church, you must not believe that the Church has the fullness of Truth. But if not the Church, then where?

"To whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life." If the most important thing is your salvation, and the salvation of all souls, then you must cast aside anything that gets in the way of that. If pursuing a same-sex relationship will put your soul in jeopardy, then by golly you better not do it. I have a number of friends who struggle with same-sex attraction who offer up this struggle, and it is so inspiring. They are, in this respect, living lives of heroic virtue, because they feel tugging from all sides to accept their orientation and just go ahead and have those relationships, but remain strong. They have found the pearl of great price and have sold all they have for it--nothing, NOTHING is as important as their life with God, and they will forsake all else to pursue it. Happiness is not pleasant feelings, it is the activity of your perfect fulfillment, and that perfect fulfillment is only in God--and when you live as God would have you live, you are perfectly happy.

To put this to use practically, I would make sure that you are not approaching what the Church says as a gay man, but simply as someone seeking to understand the Church's teaching. Try to wrap your mind around why She teaches what She does, and ask God to conform your mind and your will to His--as you should for everything, not just this issue. God loves you, so incredibly and unbelievably much, and wants you to be happy--but that happiness is not in something that is against His will. True happiness lies in doing God's will, because we will be living as we should. Don't think about what you want, but focus on what God wants for you--again, not just in this issue but in all things. You seem to have quite the breadth of knowledge of Church teaching, especially for someone so young, yet you obstinately cannot allow yourself to accept Her teaching on this issue which cuts so close for you--even to the point of possibly rejecting the Church entirely! I understand the arguments you bring forward about "loving, caring relationships" between same-sex couples--I don't want to get into them now because this post is already getting super long. But ultimately, above all else, you have to decide what your response to the Church's teaching will be. Will you say, "Non serviam"? Be careful and consider who else answered in this manner. You know that you must choose God and not yourself, and that His Truth is contained fully in the Church--so you must, you MUST follow her.

I'll be praying for you. This is incredibly hard, and I think it's harder than some other issues people struggle with because society is constantly telling you it's okay. It would be so nice to just give in and do what they say, but resisting that takes incredible fortitude. This struggle can be the means of elevating you to great sanctity--just what the Enemy doesn't want.

[VeniteAdoremus]

I don't want to hijack Ora's thread, but something which has been bugging me for ages is how does celibacy tie in to all of this? (Not priestly celibacy per say, because I know that's a discipline: celibacy in general.)

It's obvious that the Church has a history of celibacy going down to Joseph, Mary, Jesus, St. John the Baptist, St. Paul... so I'm not questioning the existence of it. But it does get in the way of "be fruitful and multiply".

Some people tell me I'd do better for the Church if I found a good Catholic husband, had a gaggle of children and do parish work on the side. Others talk about "spiritual motherhood" and how the legions of souls I will save as a sister (no pressure!) would be my fruitfulness.

So how does it work?

And [i]if[/i] I can do the latter - being fruitful without actually having children - what exactly is the difference between that and having a relationship that obviously would not provide children?

(I'm not making a statement. I'm just failing to grasp the logic. And that bugs me.)

[Theologian in Training]

Ora,

Have you ever read "The Four Loves" by C.S. Lewis? [url="http://books.google.com/books?id=oXB_bmRNDGwC&dq=4+loves&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&ei=bCVCSoLYBNmJtgeI-72lCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6"]http://books.google.com/books?id=oXB_bmRND...lt&resnum=6[/url]

or Deus Caritas Est from Pope Benedict?

[url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20051225_deus-caritas-est_en.html"]http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict...tas-est_en.html[/url]

I have to be honest, I am done responding because it is apparent you are reading parts of my posts, but not all of them. You almost have a knee-jerk reaction to certain parts of what I say, without taking the whole thing in. I am also still convinced that you have a set definition of what love is and building off of that. While, you realize the sacrificial nature of love, your idea is romanticized and that is your basic premise, this romanticized version of the love you have in your mind. If you have not read the above yet, I highly recommend you do, because it might help you understand things a bit different.

You have my prayers.

God bless

Fr. Brian

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Theologian in Training' post='1900515' date='Jun 24 2009, 09:21 AM']Ora,

Have you ever read "The Four Loves" by C.S. Lewis? [url="http://books.google.com/books?id=oXB_bmRNDGwC&dq=4+loves&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&ei=bCVCSoLYBNmJtgeI-72lCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6"]http://books.google.com/books?id=oXB_bmRND...lt&resnum=6[/url]

or Deus Caritas Est from Pope Benedict?

[url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20051225_deus-caritas-est_en.html"]http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict...tas-est_en.html[/url]

I have to be honest, I am done responding because it is apparent you are reading parts of my posts, but not all of them. You almost have a knee-jerk reaction to certain parts of what I say, without taking the whole thing in. I am also still convinced that you have a set definition of what love is and building off of that. While, you realize the sacrificial nature of love, your idea is romanticized and that is your basic premise, this romanticized version of the love you have in your mind. If you have not read the above yet, I highly recommend you do, because it might help you understand things a bit different.

You have my prayers.

God bless

Fr. Brian[/quote]

I read Deus Caritas Est when it came out, but I'll have another look. Sorry if I've been difficult or annoying, Father. I have a hard time vocalizing how I feel on this issue because, obviously, I'm still very conflicted about the whole thing. No matter where I stand on the issue, I feel conflicted.

Anyway, thankyou for the effort and sorry if it seemed like I hadn't been reading your posts properly.

God Bless and congratulations on your recent assignments

[BG45]

I'd second 4 Loves, Missy and I loved it! (Though I need to catch up on my Deus Caritas Est)

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='jiyoung' post='1900469' date='Jun 24 2009, 08:11 AM']Hey, OPM--a couple things.

- A woman who is declared clinically infertile is not necessarily so, and there are examples in Scripture of women who were barren but conceived--Sarah, Hannah, Elizabeth... I don't honestly know anything about whether they wouldn't be allowed to marry, but even clinical infertility doesn't necessarily mean complete sterility.

- With old age, see above with Sarah and Elizabeth. Though they were well past their child-bearing years, the actual act of intercourse was open to life, and bore fruit. I recently sang at the wedding of an older couple. They're probably not going to have children, but they won't be contracepting--and they could still leave it open so that they could.

- The Rhythm method is obsolete, I believe--I think you're talking about NFP. The problem with contraception is that it puts an actual physical block, which works against what God has created. With NFP, you're actually working with the way God created your fertility: a woman's cycle goes through periods where she is more or less likely to conceive. This system can also be used by couples who are trying to conceive--again, working with the way God created our cycles. It remains open to life, and if God wants to mess around with you and have you conceive even on a day when you shouldn't be ovulating, He could. NFP is more reliable than other birth control methods, since it actually works with the way the body works, but you can still conceive even if you're practicing it--as Micah and Jennie may be able to attest.


I want to add that the biggest thing that has helped me through my own struggles with Catholic teachings is this assurance that the Holy Spirit will guide the Church into all truth. The Church is infallible; I am not. Understanding this, I realized that if I disagreed with the Church on something, it was much more likely that I was wrong, and not the Church. I should be fides quaerens intellectum--faith seeking understanding. There must be one body in which the fullness of the truth is contained--how are we to believe that this God who loves us so much that He would die for us would leave us here without illumination, without guidance, without leadership? He would never leave us orphans. So, like it or not, if you disagree with the Church, you must not believe that the Church has the fullness of Truth. But if not the Church, then where?

"To whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life." If the most important thing is your salvation, and the salvation of all souls, then you must cast aside anything that gets in the way of that. If pursuing a same-sex relationship will put your soul in jeopardy, then by golly you better not do it. I have a number of friends who struggle with same-sex attraction who offer up this struggle, and it is so inspiring. They are, in this respect, living lives of heroic virtue, because they feel tugging from all sides to accept their orientation and just go ahead and have those relationships, but remain strong. They have found the pearl of great price and have sold all they have for it--nothing, NOTHING is as important as their life with God, and they will forsake all else to pursue it. Happiness is not pleasant feelings, it is the activity of your perfect fulfillment, and that perfect fulfillment is only in God--and when you live as God would have you live, you are perfectly happy.

To put this to use practically, I would make sure that you are not approaching what the Church says as a gay man, but simply as someone seeking to understand the Church's teaching. Try to wrap your mind around why She teaches what She does, and ask God to conform your mind and your will to His--as you should for everything, not just this issue. God loves you, so incredibly and unbelievably much, and wants you to be happy--but that happiness is not in something that is against His will. True happiness lies in doing God's will, because we will be living as we should. Don't think about what you want, but focus on what God wants for you--again, not just in this issue but in all things. You seem to have quite the breadth of knowledge of Church teaching, especially for someone so young, yet you obstinately cannot allow yourself to accept Her teaching on this issue which cuts so close for you--even to the point of possibly rejecting the Church entirely! I understand the arguments you bring forward about "loving, caring relationships" between same-sex couples--I don't want to get into them now because this post is already getting super long. But ultimately, above all else, you have to decide what your response to the Church's teaching will be. Will you say, "Non serviam"? Be careful and consider who else answered in this manner. You know that you must choose God and not yourself, and that His Truth is contained fully in the Church--so you must, you MUST follow her.

I'll be praying for you. This is incredibly hard, and I think it's harder than some other issues people struggle with because society is constantly telling you it's okay. It would be so nice to just give in and do what they say, but resisting that takes incredible fortitude. This struggle can be the means of elevating you to great sanctity--just what the Enemy doesn't want.[/quote]
Well said.

And Ora, I'm praying. This may not be on the same level as your struggle (OK, definitely isn't), but I know I had a hard time understanding and accepting the Church teaching on contraception and surrogacy at first. It was a very humbling experience to say I would submit anyway, even though I didn't agree or understand. I know it can feel like hypocrisy, but I think it is more accurately an exercise in humility.