Theologian in Training Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 (edited) [quote name='OraProMe' post='1897460' date='Jun 21 2009, 10:32 AM']Who said anything about solving all lifes problems? I'm not doing this just because I think it's easier, as some people seem to be saying. I honestly cannt keep going on with this internal struggle between who I am and my faith. Especially when I'm not ashamed, I don't consider myself disordered and for the life of me can't, despite my sincere efforts, give my assent to the Church on this. I'm sorry I'm not like Lilred and some other people here, but it just makes me feel like the biggest hypocrite. If I'm wrong, I pray that God will be merciful when I'm judged.[/quote] But, doesn't your faith define who you are? If not, what defines who you are? You seem to be approaching this whole thing as your identity, yet, sexual orientation should not define us, that's what the culture wants you to believe, but we are so much more than that. Our identity is as mysterious as the one who made us, to settle on a specific identity is to limit who we are (and, I am not just talking sexual here, any type of identity). You seem caught in one thing and letting that gnaw at you as though that is all there is. It is the the old belief that the more you fight the more it becomes center stage, like the person dealing with sexual thoughts, fighting them, making sure that they don't enter, only making the situation worse. Or the alcoholic whose one thought is to drink, trying to avoid it, only to wind up drinking. The struggle does not always entail fighting, it entails being alert, "sober and alert," being aware of the temptation before it enters. You say you are lonely, and the reason you are lonely is because you are fighting homosexual tendencies, but, again, it is limiting upon who we are and what we are. Loneliness is a lot deeper than not being with someone, sometimes the loneliest people are those standing in the midst of a crowd. And, I am not a 15 yr. old "idealist" but a 32 year old who has more than once wanted to leave God behind, suffering more than you could possibly imagine. I am not trying to compare notes, but to let you know that though the struggle is unique to you, in terms of what it is you are struggling with, the struggle itself, is universal and applies to anything. God bless Fr. Brian Edited June 21, 2009 by Theologian in Training Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 (edited) [quote name='OraProMe' post='1897460' date='Jun 21 2009, 09:32 AM']I'm sorry I'm not like Lilred and some other people here, but it just makes me feel like the biggest hypocrite.[/quote] Most people are hypocrites, believe it or not (in the sense of "a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings"). I know that I'm one. Edited June 21, 2009 by Resurrexi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 [quote name='OraProMe' post='1897460' date='Jun 21 2009, 07:32 AM']Who said anything about solving all lifes problems? I'm not doing this just because I think it's easier, as some people seem to be saying. I honestly cannt keep going on with this internal struggle between who I am and my faith. Especially when I'm not ashamed, I don't consider myself disordered and for the life of me can't, despite my sincere efforts, give my assent to the Church on this. I'm sorry I'm not like Lilred and some other people here, but it just makes me feel like the biggest hypocrite. If I'm wrong, I pray that God will be merciful when I'm judged.[/quote]+J.M.J.+ i had to teach what the Church taught, i was/am a youth minister. it took almost three years for me to come around. and it wasn't easy, sorry if i implied that it was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash Wednesday Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 [quote name='OraProMe' post='1897460' date='Jun 21 2009, 09:32 AM']Who said anything about solving all lifes problems? I'm not doing this just because I think it's easier, as some people seem to be saying. I honestly cannt keep going on with this internal struggle between who I am and my faith. Especially when I'm not ashamed, I don't consider myself disordered and for the life of me can't, despite my sincere efforts, give my assent to the Church on this. I'm sorry I'm not like Lilred and some other people here, but it just makes me feel like the biggest hypocrite. If I'm wrong, I pray that God will be merciful when I'm judged.[/quote] Um, I was mostly just poking fun at the similarities of your current goal in life and where I'm at now...I wasn't trying to dogpile you. But anyway... That internal struggle with who you are and your faith? Welcome to the club. And to the rest of your life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VeniteAdoremus Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 [quote name='Ash Wednesday' post='1897527' date='Jun 21 2009, 07:34 PM']That internal struggle with who you are and your faith? Welcome to the club. And to the rest of your life.[/quote] I won't say that it's the thing that makes life worth living, but it certainly [i]defines[/i] life. My life, that is, I won't speak for others The studying physics and learning new potato recipes and hanging out with friends part is most certainly nice and to a degree, necessary to stay functional, but it's the path to holiness that counts, and I believe that the Church's path is that path, crooked as it may seem to me sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 [quote name='OraProMe' post='1897460' date='Jun 21 2009, 09:32 AM']Especially when I'm not ashamed, I don't consider myself disordered[/quote] Yet, I am a typical middle aged, heterosexual, white male, with a wife and children, steady job, living in a well established neighborhood next to a park, with softball on Friday nights... ...and I consider myself disordered. I guess it's all just a matter of perspective. I suppose my point is that your homosexuality doesn't make you unique when it comes to struggling with church teaching and living a moral life. Sure, you have homosexual tendencies. But, a pyromaniac has a tendency to burn things. An addict has a tendency to succumb to harmful addictions. Severely depressed people may have suicidal thoughts. Being manipulative, violent tendencies, sexual addicts.... all of these things are traits of people--you could say that it's just "the way God made them". We are all made with flaws. ALL of us. By calling our flaws normal, we turn ourselves into a bunch of perfect people. And of course, we are not. God is perfection. We're all broken. But, we should never give up on trying to be perfect, and asking God to fix us. If we lie to ourselves by pretending we are not broken, we'll never be fixed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bus Station Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 [quote name='Theologian in Training' post='1897511' date='Jun 21 2009, 11:07 AM']But, doesn't your faith define who you are? If not, what defines who you are? You seem to be approaching this whole thing as your identity, yet, sexual orientation should not define us, that's what the culture wants you to believe, but we are so much more than that. Our identity is as mysterious as the one who made us, to settle on a specific identity is to limit who we are (and, I am not just talking sexual here, any type of identity). You seem caught in one thing and letting that gnaw at you as though that is all there is. It is the the old belief that the more you fight the more it becomes center stage, like the person dealing with sexual thoughts, fighting them, making sure that they don't enter, only making the situation worse. Or the alcoholic whose one thought is to drink, trying to avoid it, only to wind up drinking. The struggle does not always entail fighting, it entails being alert, "sober and alert," being aware of the temptation before it enters. You say you are lonely, and the reason you are lonely is because you are fighting homosexual tendencies, but, again, it is limiting upon who we are and what we are. Loneliness is a lot deeper than not being with someone, sometimes the loneliest people are those standing in the midst of a crowd. And, I am not a 15 yr. old "idealist" but a 32 year old who has more than once wanted to leave God behind, suffering more than you could possibly imagine. I am not trying to compare notes, but to let you know that though the struggle is unique to you, in terms of what it is you are struggling with, the struggle itself, is universal and applies to anything. God bless Fr. Brian[/quote] [quote name='dUSt' post='1897571' date='Jun 21 2009, 12:30 PM']Yet, I am a typical middle aged, heterosexual, white male, with a wife and children, steady job, living in a well established neighborhood next to a park, with softball on Friday nights... ...and I consider myself disordered. I guess it's all just a matter of perspective. I suppose my point is that your homosexuality doesn't make you unique when it comes to struggling with church teaching and living a moral life. Sure, you have homosexual tendencies. But, a pyromaniac has a tendency to burn things. An addict has a tendency to succumb to harmful addictions. Severely depressed people may have suicidal thoughts. Being manipulative, violent tendencies, sexual addicts.... all of these things are traits of people--you could say that it's just "the way God made them". We are all made with flaws. ALL of us. By calling our flaws normal, we turn ourselves into a bunch of perfect people. And of course, we are not. God is perfection. We're all broken. But, we should never give up on trying to be perfect, and asking God to fix us. If we lie to ourselves by pretending we are not broken, we'll never be fixed.[/quote] and Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregorius Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 [quote name='Brother Adam' post='1896548' date='Jun 20 2009, 09:57 AM']God's will should not make you happy, it should make you holy.[/quote] Respectfully, I believe this statement is not quite true, I would only add that holiness is calling you to happiness, but true happiness is not necessarily the popular conception of happiness. But anyway, I just wanted to say that everyone in the phamily cares about you. Christ cares about you too. We have always enjoyed your company here. Regardless of what you do, I ask that you stay in contact with us. We will be here for you regardless, as you have been for us, as Christ has been for us. Peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffpugh Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 [quote name='Gregorius' post='1897640' date='Jun 21 2009, 02:42 PM']Respectfully, I believe this statement is not quite true, I would only add that holiness is calling you to happiness, but true happiness is not necessarily the popular conception of happiness. But anyway, I just wanted to say that everyone in the phamily cares about you. Christ cares about you too. We have always enjoyed your company here. Regardless of what you do, I ask that you stay in contact with us. We will be here for you regardless, as you have been for us, as Christ has been for us. Peace.[/quote] I've read some books by the founder of the movement "Communion and Liberation", Fr. Giussani, and he's said many times that the journey with God brings happiness, moreover, joy. Anywho, I concur with Gregorius. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lumiere Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 [quote name='Brother Adam' post='1896548' date='Jun 20 2009, 10:57 AM']God's will should not make you happy, it should make you holy. The Church speaks the truth that God is and that he has revealed to us. True freedom can only be found by following his will.[/quote] We had four children in 6 years. There was a good long period there when we were woken at least once every night and often times more than once. It was a trying time and if someone had offered to take the kids for a night or two, I would have taken them up on it. However, if someone had offered to remove the problem for good by taking the kids away, I would have fought them tooth and nail. These were our children and, even though raising them was often hard, boring, frustrating, and tiring, my vocation was to be the best parent to those children I could be. Was I going to be a perfect parent? No! I was going to be the best parent I could be, that was my vocation. Now, with my children grown, I look back on those years and I know they were the best years of my life. When I read the blogs and vocation stories of religious I find that while they like their family visits, their feast days, and their desert days, if you tried to remove them from their sometimes hard, boring, frustrating, and tiring work which is their vocation they would also fight you tooth and hail. They also all state that they are very happy in their vocation, even though at times it is hard. If you had landed me with four children when I was 15, I would have had no chance for success because I would have not had the chance to grow and mature into my vocation. If you had taken most of the religious that I have read about at 15 and put them into the vows that they are now living they would have had no chance of being a success because they would not have had the chance to grow and mature into their vocation. A 15 year old needs time to discern, to grow, to learn, and they should not feel pressured to live what someone else has discerned is right for them. As that 15 year old grows and matures, he/she will find their own vocation and living that vocation will make them happy, even if sometimes it is hard, boring, frustrating, and tiring. Living that vocation may also make them holy, but that isn't for you and me to decide. That aside, I take offense at the constant references to "homosexual tendencies", as if it is something as simple as my tendency to eat too much chocolate. People who call themselves homosexual are by and large fully homosexual. It is not a tendency they can ignore with "will power", it is who they are. A homosexual, like a heterosexual, may decide to live a chaste life or a celibate life, but they will still be homosexual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSW Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 [quote name='Lumiere' post='1897764' date='Jun 21 2009, 06:19 PM']People who call themselves homosexual are by and large fully homosexual. It is not a tendency they can ignore with "will power", it is who they are. A homosexual, like a heterosexual, may decide to live a chaste life or a celibate life, but they will still be homosexual.[/quote] I'm sorry but you contradicted yourself in that paragraph. If a heterosexual or homosexual person decides to live a chaste or celebate life, then it is through their own will(will power) that they are able to do this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noel's angel Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 (edited) Firstly, prayers. Secondly, let's not turn yet another thread into a debate where none was intended. If people want to debate or discuss 'homosexual tendencies' or whether God's will should make you happy on earth, go to the debate board. Meanwhile, I hope this thread will return to being one of encouragement and prayer. We should continue to encourage Ora, and each other, to constantly seek out God's will when things get tough and we aren't sure what to do. Our Blessed Mother could have easily said no to God when he asked her to be the Mother of His Son. But she did His will and brought our Lord into the world. I'm sure that before he was captured, when he was 'sorrowful, even unto death' that Christ wished things had been different for Him. Yet, because He asked that the Father's will be done, He was able to overcome death. What great things can be done when people say 'not my will but Yours be done'. Edited June 21, 2009 by Noel's angel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lumiere Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 [quote name='LSW' post='1897784' date='Jun 21 2009, 06:29 PM']I'm sorry but you contradicted yourself in that paragraph. If a heterosexual or homosexual person decides to live a chaste or celebate life, then it is through their own will(will power) that they are able to do this.[/quote] Is a heterosexual who decides to live a chaste or celibate life still heterosexual? Why does no one refer to "heterosexual tendencies". I agree that this thread shouldn't be sidetracked. The thing that has been on my heart since I read this young man's letter is that he be given the time and space to discern for himself what his vocation is without knee jerk condemnation of his homosexuality (whether that condemnation is open or more subtle). I felt that there had to be someone who would reassure him that he is accepted as he is and that God loves him as he is. That is why I decided to finally post for the first time. What this young man is dealing with is really no different than what most young men deal with at this age, the only difference is he loves another young man instead of young woman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
takebacktonight Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 Take it slow, buddy. God has good in store for all of us. What form that takes I honestly have no idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregorius Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 [quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1897753' date='Jun 21 2009, 05:11 PM']I've read some books by the founder of the movement "Communion and Liberation", Fr. Giussani, and he's said many times that the journey with God brings happiness, moreover, joy. Anywho, I concur with Gregorius.[/quote] Ha, that's precisely who I was thinking about! Mgsr. Giussani is the man! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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