I Feel Like I Owe You Guys.....

[Hassan]

[quote name='OraProMe' post='1905069' date='Jun 29 2009, 02:17 AM']I love how you ignored the 90% of my post you had no reply to.

Nice. The fact that the scientists/psychologists aren't Catholic is a good thing. It means the findings aren't biased.

ANYWAY OFF TOPIC[/quote]


They may not be biased to support the teachings of the Church, but they do have important institutional biases. Just a note.

[jiyoung]

Random replies to random things that stuck out to me:

There is no contradiction in God. So, if you believe that the Bible is God's Word, and that He speaks through the Church, and they condemn homosexual activity as sinful, then how can you believe that God approves of homosexuality? I realize you talk about "loving, caring relationships" versus the sexually promiscuous ones that Scripture may be talking about, but a loving, caring romantic relationship typically leads to the two people wanting to give themselves to each other physically as well as emotionally, etc. But homosexual activity is sinful. Would God then create something that is specifically ordered towards something sinful? Look at what it's supposed to look like in its purest form.

I find it interesting that you say that the research is unbiased because it seems to me like a lot of this research is biased towards proving homosexuality to be inherent to nature, or something in the brain, or whatever. But I've heard that there are conditions in the brain (injuries or imbalances and the like) that make someone a complete nymphomaniac. Their culpability is reduced, but that doesn't make the constant promiscuous sex become magically non-sinful. I've also heard some evidence in a biology course for causes rooted in embryonic development, but I can't remember what exactly right now--point being, though, that it was a developmental thing.

One last thing: some people are born with certain defects, genetic or developmental, ranging from autism to anencephaly, Down's Syndrome, etc... I'm not saying that these are sinful, of course. But these defaults are a result of the Fall, and though they were born this way this is not how they were meant to be. So do you say that God meant to create people who literally have no brain, or whatever? Was that in His original plan, how He meant us to be? Clearly, this isn't the case. These things are results of the Fall. This would be Catholic teaching on homosexuality as well: not as God intended from the beginning. That idea of "man and woman He created them" is pretty darn significant.

Okay, I lied, this is the last thing: I have a number of friends who struggle with SSA. Their obedience to the Church is remarkable and incredibly inspiring, because while the world screams for them to "accept themselves as they are" they stand firm and keep their eyes on Jesus. This is the pearl of great price, and they are selling all they have for it--no matter what the sacrifice; they completely die to themselves in what I think is a particularly difficult way.

[Theologian in Training]

[quote name='OraProMe' post='1905053' date='Jun 29 2009, 02:58 AM']You haven't asked one good question. Instead you've decide to make a bunch of assumptions. I'm not missing anything and there's nothing to hit home.

The gist of this entire conversation is you didn't like that I said God created me gay. I asked you why I'm gay then and provided a few scientific examples. You couldn't answer.[/quote]

In all fairness, however, how can you prove that God created you gay? I have a heart condition, that has caused me to have multiple surgeries. Is it fair for me to say that God created my bad heart?

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Theologian in Training' post='1905116' date='Jun 29 2009, 08:06 AM']In all fairness, however, how can you prove that God created you gay? I have a heart condition, that has caused me to have multiple surgeries. Is it fair for me to say that God created my bad heart?[/quote]

Because it arises in all cultures, ages and species which means it's extremely hard to pinpoint any single environmental factor that could be a cause of homosexuality. Unless you're a smoker or very bad eater my guess is your heart problems are genetic? Well, so's my homosexuality. The difference being homosexuality isn't physically harmful like a heart disease, Father......

Edited June 29, 2009 by OraProMe

[VeniteAdoremus]

[quote name='OraProMe' post='1905160' date='Jun 29 2009, 05:43 PM']Because it arises in all cultures, ages and species which means it's extremely hard to pinpoint any single environmental factor that could be a cause of homosexuality. Unless you're a smoker or very bad eater my guess is your heart problems are genetic? Well, so's my homosexuality. The difference being homosexuality isn't physically harmful like a heart disease, Father......[/quote]

The question does remain whether God created our genes that way, or they became flawed as a result of the Fall.

[OraProMe]

[quote name='VeniteAdoremus' post='1905163' date='Jun 29 2009, 10:47 AM']The question does remain whether God created our genes that way, or they became flawed as a result of the Fall.[/quote]

Well yeah, putting it that way makes it a bit harder for me to answer.

Homosexuality being something completely unrelated to genetics is something I'm sure is wrong. The whole nurture not nature thing. Genes becoming flawed as a result of the fall I haven't considered. I'll have to think about that one >___>

[jiyoung]

That was basically the point I was trying to make, that homosexuality (as well as a host of other things) is a result of the Fall.

I think that it's kind of pointless to argue "nature vs nurture." Personally I think it seems like a mixture, though I'm not entirely convinced as far as the genetics go--has anyone located a "gay gene"? Is it a mutation in a particular a gene? (furthering the idea that it may not necessarily be how we were meant to be.) I'm still more leaning towards the idea of it being perhaps something one becomes more predisposed to in embryonic development.

[VeniteAdoremus]

[quote name='jiyoung' post='1905197' date='Jun 29 2009, 06:30 PM']That was basically the point I was trying to make, that homosexuality (as well as a host of other things) is a result of the Fall.

I think that it's kind of pointless to argue "nature vs nurture." Personally I think it seems like a mixture, though I'm not entirely convinced as far as the genetics go--has anyone located a "gay gene"? Is it a mutation in a particular a gene? (furthering the idea that it may not necessarily be how we were meant to be.) I'm still more leaning towards the idea of it being perhaps something one becomes more predisposed to in embryonic development.[/quote]

Well, if all gay people would just go and reproduce we might see whether there's a gene

All flippancy aside, from the very basic stuff of what I know about genetics (I've been in a few research programs due to my genes being ultra-funky), there will never be a gene identified with homosexuality. However, there could certainly be a combination of factors all having to do with brain development, which together with external factors could lead to etc. (which would tie in with your embryonic development idea).

Question is whether they'd ever find it. And whether we'd want that to happen. (My money is on two times "no".)

I don't know to what extent the actual cause of homosexuality influences its chances of being caused by the Fall, though. It doesn't seem very relevant to me.

[Nihil Obstat]

Just a fun factoid I'll throw in... I don't know if it'll mean anything to any of you or not, but from what I've heard, every older brother you have makes you 7% more likely for a male to be gay. This is so far the only significant link they've found to anything.

Of course it may be wrong, but that's what I've heard.

[Theologian in Training]

[quote name='OraProMe' post='1905160' date='Jun 29 2009, 11:43 AM']Because it arises in all cultures, ages and species which means it's extremely hard to pinpoint any single environmental factor that could be a cause of homosexuality. Unless you're a smoker or very bad eater my guess is your heart problems are genetic? Well, so's my homosexuality. The difference being homosexuality isn't physically harmful like a heart disease, Father......[/quote]

But, that still does not answer the question as to how you can prove that God created you gay. However, just for argument's sake, if He did make you gay, why would He do that?