OraProMe Posted June 28, 2009 Author Share Posted June 28, 2009 [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' post='1903277' date='Jun 27 2009, 11:08 PM']I have a great deal of respect for you, for this.[/quote] Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OraProMe Posted June 28, 2009 Author Share Posted June 28, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1903280' date='Jun 27 2009, 11:13 PM']Well thank you. I don't care what Ora does, I just hope that whatever decision he makes let's him live a happy, meaningful life. His finding that in the army of another man or the busom of the Church makes little difference to me. I am curious how he reconciles this with his larger Catholic faith. Asigning St. Paul's condemnation of homosexuality is fine with me, I'd view most moral considerations and their subsequent conclusions as culturally defined and influenced. St. Augustines philosophy was heavily influenced by neo-Platonism and his manichaen past. The questions the early Christians considered morally relevant and the was they viewed were integrally tied the their culture. You're context and prejudices determine not only how you solve problems but what problems need to be solved or even are problems. However his theology is, as best I would assume, an integrated whole. while homosexuality may be more existentially pressing for him, it is part of an interconnected web of assumptions and dispositions which make up the sum total of his Catholicism. I'm just curious how he hopes to remove this one pit of that web without the whole thing crashing down.[/quote] Interesting. My response is above you, we must have been writing at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted June 28, 2009 Share Posted June 28, 2009 [quote name='OraProMe' post='1903279' date='Jun 27 2009, 11:13 PM']Hassan, I'm really not sure about this stuff but I'll give it a go. Don't hold me to any of this though. If the Church is wrong about homosexuality then doesn't that, by modus tollens, negate her claim to infallibility? Logically, yes. It's something I have to look into. Maybe it doesn't negate it, just limits the extent of her infallibility. Do you accept the Church's teachings on sodomy between heterosexual couples? Personally I think the Church crosses the line when it dictates what's appropriate in the bedroom between a husband and wife. Do you believe matrimony to be sacramental? Catholic marriage, sure. Mixed marriage, sure. Two non-Christians who are married no. They're still validly married, they just don't receive the grace that comes from the sacrament. Do you agree that extra marital sex is a adultery? I think it's best to wait till marriage, yeah. Why are you still Catholic? Why? Do you think I should become a secret Muslim too ? I'll just repost what I wrote earlier today when this question came up: [i]Well, as VeniteAdoremus said it's a work in progress but I'll try to answer. I've tried to understand the Churches position and even followed them for a time. No matter how much I study or pray I cannot give an internal assent to the Church on the matter. Every time I read about it in the catechism, articles, catholic publications, whatever it's like every part of my being just starts protesting, not in an angry way. More a "This isn't write. It's just not. They have absolutely no idea" kind of way. I just can't understand why God would make anyone gay if homosexuality is a disorder and un-natural. I know people here will say "he didn't make anyone gay" but that goes against not only my own experience but also psychological research (But that's not what you asked so I wont go into it). I'm happy being gay and even if I could change it, I wouldn't. This is the way God created me, it's not something that needs to be "corrected" or suppressed. Doing that is what feels un-natural to me. So if the Church is wrong on homosexuality what's that mean about the rest of the magisterium? Is Her other moral teaching infallible? Is She infallible at all? Does conscience trump ecclesial authority? I mean if even one iota of the magisterium is wrong then that throws her entire infalliblity into question, right? I don't know. It's something I'll have to figure out and come to a conclusion about but at the moment I don't know. However I do know that I love the Mass, I love the Faith, I love the saints, I love Pope Benedict, I love the Eucharist, I love Our Lady, I love the Rosary, I love Holy Hour, I love adoration, I love priests, I love nuns, I love prayer, I love confession and I love God. I'm not about to give all that up. [/i][/quote] thank you. I'll hold off on my questions to these responses so we don't go way off track, but I am interested in how you work all this out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted June 28, 2009 Share Posted June 28, 2009 And yes, I do invite you too Secret Islam. Or I would, were you not Australian. Australians, Lebanese, and the Dutch are not fit for the faith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OraProMe Posted June 28, 2009 Author Share Posted June 28, 2009 I have jam donuts and chocolate I can bring to mosque after Friday prayers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted June 28, 2009 Share Posted June 28, 2009 [quote name='OraProMe' post='1903287' date='Jun 28 2009, 12:19 AM']I have jam donuts and chocolate I can bring to mosque after Friday prayers?[/quote] Well, how interesting. I believe Ibn Hassan Jamal Jackson ruled that Australians may be welcomed if they bring jam doughnuts and chocolate But no Dutch, no exceptions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinytherese Posted June 28, 2009 Share Posted June 28, 2009 Say Ora, have you ever studied anything from the Theology of the Body? I'm just a beginner when it comes to it, but what little that I have learned is amazing. It goes far beyond discussing the act of sexual intercourse when it comes to sexuality, but love itself and about God's design for manhood and womanhood. You'll discover that chastity is not some long list of what you cannot do, but something far more freeing than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VeniteAdoremus Posted June 28, 2009 Share Posted June 28, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1903290' date='Jun 28 2009, 07:22 AM']But no Dutch, no exceptions [/quote] That's okay. We wouldn't fit in anyway. Your religion is too small for us. (Half our country is below sea level, not only because we can work magic with a shovel, but also because we would otherwise block the horizon and take up everybody's sunlight and we're just too nice to do that.) We will simply continue having Mass in the Holy Dutch Language. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OraProMe Posted June 28, 2009 Author Share Posted June 28, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1903283' date='Jun 27 2009, 11:16 PM']thank you. I'll hold off on my questions to these responses so we don't go way off track, but I am interested in how you work all this out.[/quote] Nah, make some responses. I have a train trip tomorrow, it'll fill in the time. But if you're waiting for me to figure all this stuff out so I actually make sense you might want to check in when I'm like, oh I don't know.....dead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theologian in Training Posted June 28, 2009 Share Posted June 28, 2009 Ora, Have you ever considered celibacy "for the kingdom?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OraProMe Posted June 28, 2009 Author Share Posted June 28, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Theologian in Training' post='1903582' date='Jun 28 2009, 10:40 AM']Ora, Have you ever considered celibacy "for the kingdom?"[/quote] I have no idea what that means :/ I've pondered my vocation in life a lot. I've always felt called to family life or the priesthood. I can't do either according to the Church ): Never have I felt called to the life life of a single layman. But you know, I plan on raising kids with a devoted partner anyway. Edited June 28, 2009 by OraProMe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theologian in Training Posted June 28, 2009 Share Posted June 28, 2009 [quote name='OraProMe' post='1903586' date='Jun 28 2009, 12:45 PM']I have no idea what that means :/ I've pondered my vocation in life a lot. I've always felt called to family life or the priesthood. I can't do either according to the Church ): Never have I felt called to the life life of a single layman. But you know, I plan on raising kids with a devoted partner anyway.[/quote] I just find it interesting that you would be a good candidate for the priesthood, despite your orientation. However, many people ruined it for the rest, even if you were to promise celibacy, those that have not lived it have ruined it for people like you. Have you ever heard of Henri Nouwen? He was a priest and was a homosexual who struggled with it all his life. This is a good synopsis of a biography of his life [url="http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/4673.htm"]http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/4673.htm[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VeniteAdoremus Posted June 28, 2009 Share Posted June 28, 2009 One of the most visible priests in our country (although he actually lives in Rome) used to lead a so-called "openly gay lifestyle" (decades ago). But he's one of those men who just overflow with priestliness... you know the type? Not that they're all holy or something, but that you can talk about the weather or whatever and within ten seconds know that he's a Good Priest. That shifted my perspective somewhat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hilde Posted June 28, 2009 Share Posted June 28, 2009 [quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1903254' date='Jun 28 2009, 06:49 AM']You see, that's why we Canucks are weird. We don't have the same cool phrasologies. He does that a lot. I have not heard of such experiment.. .what does it entail? And Jake, would you be willing to talk this out? Seems folks want to. You don't have to though. What an intriguing question.[/quote] You can make them float on it, or make actual dry ice bubbles that turn into "fog" when you squeeze them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffpugh Posted June 28, 2009 Share Posted June 28, 2009 [quote name='Hilde' post='1903630' date='Jun 28 2009, 12:32 PM']You can make them float on it, or make actual dry ice bubbles that turn into "fog" when you squeeze them.[/quote] Cool! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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