I Feel Like I Owe You Guys.....

[Norseman82]

OK, someone has to call you out on this one.

[quote name='OraProMe' post='1901160' date='Jun 25 2009, 07:47 AM']Oh man.
Look, if you want to debate this then start a thread in the debate table. That's why I asked you not to post here because all you're interested in is arguing.


[i]The purpose of this forum is to Preach Holy Apostolic Truth, not to serve as personal therapy or validation for you.[/i]
Right. Because if I wanted personal therapy or validation I'd definitely come to a forum full of orthodox Catholics.

Makes sense.

[i]If you seek private counseling, a public internet forum is not the place for it.[/i]
ummm..... what? No, no. I'm a toughy.

[i]If you or anyone else publicly attacks the teachings of the Church on here, I will do my Christian duty to counter them with Catholic truth.[/i]
Contemporary crusader.

Here's an idea: you work out your salvation and I'll work out mine. If the merciful, all loving and benevolent God wants to condemn me for acting in accordance with my conscience and the way he made me, biologically, then so be it.

Personally, I don't think he finds my love life all that interesting.[/quote]

I think the only person who is arguing is you. Here is your pattern: you ask for help and answers to questions, and when you get answers that will not give you an excuse to sin, you start whining that we're turning this into a debate and get hostile and act like someone peed in your Midol. You're even testing the patience of a priest who is currently undergoing medical treatment!

Your soul is in the balance and we're trying to help you. How about you knocking off your hostility and let us help you? Otherwise you will only make it harder for God to reach you through the rossaries, Mass, study, adoration, etc. (although maybe sitting in front of the Blessed Sacrament will help calm you down and cool your jets).

Edited June 26, 2009 by Norseman82

[Hilde]

'Will there be a debate thread about this, though. I don't like the restrictions.[quote name='VeniteAdoremus' post='1902037' date='Jun 26 2009, 04:07 PM']I do, but don't worry, my thesis is on soap bubbles. Doesn't get much non-scarier than that. (Except for me personally because I'm allergic to soap.)

I think that the "angry God" as portrayed in the Old Testament wasn't angry in the human sense, but that He had good reasons to inspire the Bible that way. I don't think God hates anyone.

I do think He made a how-to for living our lives which is not a wiki [/quote]

Have you tried the soap bubble trick with dry ice?

Edited June 26, 2009 by Hilde

[Norseman82]

[quote name='VeniteAdoremus' post='1902018' date='Jun 26 2009, 08:41 AM']Ha! That's [i]exactly[/i] how I explained to my physiotherapist that one can indeed study physics and be a Catholic.[/quote]

I should certainly hope so - the lady I've been dating is a PhD candidate in Physics who used to work at CERN on the LHC and is very active in her parish.

[i]Fides et Ratio[/i] for the win!!!

[Nihil Obstat]

Ora, I have a question for you.

If you could just one day make a decision, and press a button or flip a switch or something, and automatically become 100% straight, would you do it? Why or why not?

[Noel's angel]

[quote name='OraProMe' post='1902013' date='Jun 26 2009, 02:36 PM']What do you believe in? The big bang? Evolution? What?
If after that the all loving God wants to condemn me for acting in accordance with how he created me then so be it.

I've said it before but I really don't thing He's that interested in my love life.[/quote]

God doesn't condemn anyone. He wants us all to be truly happy in the next life, even if that means giving up everything in this life to get there.

[OraProMe]

Norseman,

How can you say I ask questions then get hostile about the answers? This thread wasn't a question. I just thought seem some people here have been praying for me and discussing this stuff with me I should tell them about my decision.


[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1902170' date='Jun 26 2009, 11:40 AM']Ora, I have a question for you.

If you could just one day make a decision, and press a button or flip a switch or something, and automatically become 100% straight, would you do it? Why or why not?[/quote]

No.

Two reasons:

1. Being gay has influenced me so much. And I don't mean that it's my entire identity, far from it. To be honest I hate gay culture and hardly anyone believed me when I came out. I mean that it's made me pretty strong and changed the way I perceive other people/ethnicities/minorities etcetera.

Not to mention in a twisted way it's brought me closer to God.

2. I wouldn't want to change Gods creation. I know you guys can't understand this but being gay feels SO natural, normal and right. Repressing these feelings is what feels un-natural.

[faithfulrock3r]

[quote name='Brother Adam' post='1896548' date='Jun 20 2009, 11:57 AM']God's will should not make you happy, it should make you holy. The Church speaks the truth that God is and that he has revealed to us. True freedom can only be found by following his will.[/quote]
well i suppose in the modern sense of the word "happy" (i.e. pleasure) you could be right, however i'm pretty sure the church tells us that you will be happiest when you follow your vocation and do God's will. So does aristotle (in slightly different terms), btw

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='OraProMe' post='1901161' date='Jun 25 2009, 07:48 AM']ps. The above is what Australians and Britains would call "taking the piss".[/quote]
You see, that's why we Canucks are weird. We don't have the same cool phrasologies.

[quote name='OraProMe' post='1901741' date='Jun 26 2009, 12:23 AM']I can tell from the tone of your post that you think what you're saying is funny, but...no.[/quote]
He does that a lot.

[quote name='Hilde' post='1902115' date='Jun 26 2009, 10:49 AM']'Will there be a debate thread about this, though. I don't like the restrictions.

Have you tried the soap bubble trick with dry ice?[/quote]
I have not heard of such experiment.. .what does it entail? And Jake, would you be willing to talk this out? Seems folks want to. You don't have to though.

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1902170' date='Jun 26 2009, 12:40 PM']Ora, I have a question for you.

If you could just one day make a decision, and press a button or flip a switch or something, and automatically become 100% straight, would you do it? Why or why not?[/quote]
What an intriguing question.

[OraProMe]

Sure, I'd be willing to talk it out and explain stuff.
Although I doubt I'd be very good at it. But sure.

[Hassan]

[quote name='OraProMe' post='1903257' date='Jun 27 2009, 11:52 PM']Sure, I'd be willing to talk it out and explain stuff.
Although I doubt I'd be very good at it. But sure.[/quote]


I've been following this thread for a while but have not wanted to derail it. I am curious about your mindset Ora

If the Church is wrong about homosexuality then doesn't that, by modus tollens, negate her claim to infallibility?

Do you accept the Church's teachings on sodomy between heterosexual couples?

Do you believe matrimony to be sacramental?

Do you agree that extra marital sex is a adultery?

Why are you still Catholic?

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1903268' date='Jun 27 2009, 11:00 PM']I've been following this thread for a while but have not wanted to derail it. I am curious about your mindset Ora

If the Church is wrong about homosexuality then doesn't that, by modus tollens, negate her claim to infallibility?

Do you accept the Church's teachings on sodomy between heterosexual couples?

Do you believe matrimony to be sacramental?

Do you agree that extra marital sex is a adultery?

Why are you still Catholic?[/quote]

Good questions!

[picchick]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1902107' date='Jun 26 2009, 10:39 AM']get hostile and act like someone peed in your Midol.[/quote]


I like my Midol thank you very much...

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='OraProMe' post='1902013' date='Jun 26 2009, 08:36 AM']And to answer your question, no. I've never considered becoming an atheist. I'm just going to do what feels natural and what I think God wants me to do. I'm not receiving communion anymore, but that's more out of respect for the hierarchy rather than any feeling of sinfulness or guilt. I'm just going to pray, pray, study, pray, adore, study, pray, love, pray, read, live, pray and pray.[/quote]
I have a great deal of respect for you, for this.

[OraProMe]

Hassan, I'm really not sure about this stuff but I'll give it a go. Don't hold me to any of this though.

If the Church is wrong about homosexuality then doesn't that, by modus tollens, negate her claim to infallibility?
Logically, yes. It's something I have to look into. Maybe it doesn't negate it, just limits the extent of her infallibility.

Do you accept the Church's teachings on sodomy between heterosexual couples?
Personally I think the Church crosses the line when it dictates what's appropriate in the bedroom between a husband and wife.

Do you believe matrimony to be sacramental?
Catholic marriage, sure. Mixed marriage, sure.
Two non-Christians who are married no. They're still validly married, they just don't receive the grace that comes from the sacrament.

Do you agree that extra marital sex is a adultery?
I think it's best to wait till marriage, yeah.

Why are you still Catholic?
Why? Do you think I should become a secret Muslim too ?
I'll just repost what I wrote earlier today when this question came up:

[i]Well, as VeniteAdoremus said it's a work in progress but I'll try to answer. I've tried to understand the Churches position and even followed them for a time. No matter how much I study or pray I cannot give an internal assent to the Church on the matter. Every time I read about it in the catechism, articles, catholic publications, whatever it's like every part of my being just starts protesting, not in an angry way. More a "This isn't write. It's just not. They have absolutely no idea" kind of way. I just can't understand why God would make anyone gay if homosexuality is a disorder and un-natural. I know people here will say "he didn't make anyone gay" but that goes against not only my own experience but also psychological research (But that's not what you asked so I wont go into it).

I'm happy being gay and even if I could change it, I wouldn't. This is the way God created me, it's not something that needs to be "corrected" or suppressed. Doing that is what feels un-natural to me.

So if the Church is wrong on homosexuality what's that mean about the rest of the magisterium? Is Her other moral teaching infallible? Is She infallible at all? Does conscience trump ecclesial authority? I mean if even one iota of the magisterium is wrong then that throws her entire infalliblity into question, right? I don't know. It's something I'll have to figure out and come to a conclusion about but at the moment I don't know.

However I do know that I love the Mass, I love the Faith, I love the saints, I love Pope Benedict, I love the Eucharist, I love Our Lady, I love the Rosary, I love Holy Hour, I love adoration, I love priests, I love nuns, I love prayer, I love confession and I love God.

I'm not about to give all that up. [/i]

[Hassan]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1903272' date='Jun 27 2009, 11:02 PM']Good questions! [/quote]


Well thank you. I don't care what Ora does, I just hope that whatever decision he makes let's him live a happy, meaningful life. His finding that in the army of another man or the busom of the Church makes little difference to me. I am curious how he reconciles this with his larger Catholic faith. Asigning St. Paul's condemnation of homosexuality is fine with me, I'd view most moral considerations and their subsequent conclusions as culturally defined and influenced. St. Augustines philosophy was heavily influenced by neo-Platonism and his manichaen past. The questions the early Christians considered morally relevant and the was they viewed were integrally tied the their culture. You're context and prejudices determine not only how you solve problems but what problems need to be solved or even are problems. However his theology is, as best I would assume, an integrated whole. while homosexuality may be more existentially pressing for him, it is part of an interconnected web of assumptions and dispositions which make up the sum total of his Catholicism. I'm just curious how he hopes to remove this one pit of that web without the whole thing crashing down.