Purgatory

[scardella]

According to the Catholic Encyclopedia's entry on Purgatory:
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm[/url]
[quote]Purgatory (Lat., "purgare", to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.

The faith of the Church concerning purgatory is clearly expressed in the Decree of Union drawn up by the Council of Florence (Mansi, t. XXXI, col. 1031), and in the decree of the Council of Trent which (Sess. XXV) defined:

"Whereas the Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Ghost, has from the Sacred Scriptures and the ancient tradition of the Fathers taught in Councils and very recently in this Ecumenical synod (Sess. VI, cap. XXX; Sess. XXII cap.ii, iii) that there is a purgatory, and that the souls therein are helped by the suffrages of the faithful, but principally by the acceptable Sacrifice of the Altar; the Holy Synod enjoins on the Bishops that they diligently endeavor to have the sound doctrine of the Fathers in Councils regarding purgatory everywhere taught and preached, held and believed by the faithful" (Denzinger, "Enchiridon", 983).

Further than this the definitions of the Church do not go, but the tradition of the Fathers and the Schoolmen must be consulted to explain the teachings of the councils, and to make clear the belief and the practices of the faithful.[/quote]

Edited June 24, 2009 by scardella

[scardella]

Should we also discuss the temporality of such Purgatory here as well?

Purgatory, because it involves change, is necessarily transitional. Because it is transitional, because it is not an end, it must be temporal. After purgatory, you enter Heaven.

It conflicts with the Eastern Orthodox understanding (from what I glean here) that there is no temporal existence after death, only eternal.

[Patrick]

[quote name='Patrick' post='1896416' date='Jun 19 2009, 11:58 PM']So, if purgatory-in-time is debunked...[/quote]

It's becoming clear that I misread the catechism source that LouisvilleFan posted.

I'm having a difficult time reconciling this (by LouisvilleFan):

[quote]...so many months or years penance had to be completed to make reparation for certain sins. That was always in reference to time in this life, not time in purgatory, but it's easy to see how those could be confused.[/quote]

with this (Catholic Encyclopedia, quoted by scardella):

[quote]Purgatory (Lat., "purgare", to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment[/quote]

Is it temporal, or isn't it?

Scardella, yes I would appreciate discussion on the temporality of purgatory here, inasmuch as one can say anything about it. I think it's relevant, particularly since this seems to be a point of contention between Catholics and Orthodox.

At this point, I'm seeing a disagreement amongst Catholics on whether or not time passes within Purgatory. Am I misunderstanding the state of things?

[Patrick]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1896873' date='Jun 20 2009, 04:35 PM']Going by [url="http://orthodoxwiki.org/Purgatory"]OrthodoxWiki[/url], it sounds like there isn't a consensus on what happens between death and heaven, if anything.[/quote]

To clarify, there's not much that's officially stated or required dogmatically by Orthodoxy, no.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Patrick' post='1900685' date='Jun 24 2009, 03:45 PM']Is it temporal, or isn't it?[/quote]

It is temporal punishment that is being healed, but purgatory itself is described as "a place or condition." In other words, before we can enter heaven, we need to be healed of any undue love for or attachment to this temporal world that isn't healed through our sanctification in this life. Purgatory is simply the name given to that healing.

[scardella]

Background:
- Sin does damage to us in addition to the actual sin itself.
- When our sins are forgiven, those wounds from the sin remain, although the sin itself is forgiven. That is why, for example, we retain concupiscence even after being baptized. It's also why if I hit myself, I still feel pain even if I go to confession afterward.
- We need to become perfected in order to enter into heaven. EG, we need to be healed of the wounds of our sins before entering into heaven.
- Saints are in heaven because they have been perfected by the time they die.
- Penance for sins is intended to open yourself and others to the healing grace of God as well as help you to avoid the sin in the future.

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1896873' date='Jun 20 2009, 06:35 PM']From what I've read, it comes from standards that were set (and even published) that so many months or years penance had to be completed to make reparation for certain sins. That was always in reference to time in this life, not time in purgatory, but it's easy to see how those could be confused.

I've also read testimonies of saints who had visions of people in purgatory and how their prayers or Masses prayed for them would help them gain access to heaven sooner, but I feel like that can be explained not in the sense that you spend time in purgatory, but that the sanctifying suffering of purgatory (which occurs outside of time) is best interpreted to us who are living in time as a period of time because time is what we know and experience.[/quote]

In years past, some penances given in confession lasted months and even years depending on the sin. Indulgences were given for certain practices that opened the penitent more to the grace of God. Those indulgences reduced the penance, because the person was ostensibly made more open to God's grace. This is where the days, weeks, months, etc. came from.

In modern times, penances tend to be much lighter. AFAIK, this is to emphasize that we can never earn forgiveness. However, fornication today is just as damaging to your soul today as it was to a 13th century baron.

The suffering of purgatory can't really be compared to the suffering of penances in this life. We also don't know how a person experiences time when he has no body. However, angels exist in time (or they did at one point; they had to fall in time), and they are pure spirit. Because we don't know how suffering "works" when you are bodiless, the days, weeks, months, etc. don't strictly apply in the same manner in regards to purgatory. However, time does continue to pass. My general impression has always been that you will enter heaven exponentially sooner by opening yourself more to God in this life rather than waiting for it in Purgatory.


[quote name='Patrick' post='1900685' date='Jun 24 2009, 02:45 PM']Is it temporal, or isn't it?

Scardella, yes I would appreciate discussion on the temporality of purgatory here, inasmuch as one can say anything about it. I think it's relevant, particularly since this seems to be a point of contention between Catholics and Orthodox.

At this point, I'm seeing a disagreement amongst Catholics on whether or not time passes within Purgatory. Am I misunderstanding the state of things?[/quote]

Purgatory is transitional and, thus, not an end. It is temporary. Anything that is not an end state must be temporal. I believe Louisville fan to be erroneous on this matter.

Edited June 24, 2009 by scardella

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='scardella' post='1900738' date='Jun 24 2009, 04:50 PM']However, angels exist in time (or they did at one point; they had to fall in time), and they are pure spirit.[/quote]

Is it necessary that the angels fell "in time"? I think there's already a thread on this topic... but could God have not created angels before the creation of the universe, including time?

[quote name='scardella' post='1900738' date='Jun 24 2009, 04:50 PM']Purgatory is transitional and, thus, not an end. It is temporary. Anything that is not an end state must be temporal. I believe Louisville fan to be erroneous on this matter.[/quote]

The Catechism emphasizes that the suffering of purgatory is temporal. We don't know about purgatory itself, as if it's even a "place," because it's strictly spiritual. The created universe, space, and time are temporal, but purgatory (as I understand) is simply what our souls pass through between the end of our temporal life and our eternity in heaven. If it was temporal, we would still be alive with physical bodies and obviously it cannot be eternal.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1901175' date='Jun 25 2009, 08:51 AM']Is it necessary that the angels fell "in time"? I think there's already a thread on this topic... but could God have not created angels before the creation of the universe, including time?[/quote]


I was thinking this as well. Also the angels existance before the fall was differant than it is now, angels cannot repent, nor can they fall now. They have free will but it is not as our will. Once an angel has made his decision it is done. His entire existance from that moment on is living that decision. Angels are mysterious and not necessarly analgous to humans in a spiritual state.


[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1901175' date='Jun 25 2009, 08:51 AM']The Catechism emphasizes that the suffering of purgatory is temporal. We don't know about purgatory itself, as if it's even a "place," because it's strictly spiritual. The created universe, space, and time are temporal, but purgatory (as I understand) is simply what our souls pass through between the end of our temporal life and our eternity in heaven. [i]If it was temporal, we would still be alive with physical bodies[/i] and obviously it cannot be eternal.[/quote]

I think this is the crux of the issue. Why exactly couldn't something that is not coporal, still be temporal? I see no reason why spirits without bodies could not experiance time. Similarly, there is no reason that the corporal person must experiance time. At the End of Time, the dead will rejoin thier body and live a timeless coporal existance for eternity ( not forever, which implies time).

[scardella]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1901175' date='Jun 25 2009, 07:51 AM']Is it necessary that the angels fell "in time"? I think there's already a thread on this topic... but could God have not created angels before the creation of the universe, including time?[/quote]

That doesn't make any sense. The only thing that existed "before" time is God. Only eternal (read uncreated) things have existed "before" time. Without time, you cannot have change. Thus, all Creation has taken place in time.

[quote]The Catechism emphasizes that the suffering of purgatory is temporal. We don't know about purgatory itself, as if it's even a "place," because it's strictly spiritual. The created universe, space, and time are temporal, but purgatory (as I understand) is simply what our souls pass through between the end of our temporal life and our eternity in heaven. If it was temporal, we would still be alive with physical bodies and obviously it cannot be eternal.[/b][/quote]

You're equating a temporal state with physical existence. That appears to be your error. You also seem to be contradicting yourself. The suffering of Purgatory is spiritual. When you're in Purgatory, you do not have a body that can suffer physically. Purgatory IS a purely spiritual experience after (in a literal temporal sense) death. In terms of looking at it from a temporal point of view, if you've died and you are suffering in Purgatory, that means that you have not entered heaven yet. It is quite impossible for you to be suffering spiritually and being perfected by God's grace, yet at the same time in the beatific vision of God, before which nothing imperfect can stand.

Furthermore, we have seen that dead people's souls have a temporal existence without being in hell or heaven biblically. Before Christ's death and resurrection, the souls of the righteous men and women of the Old Testament, eg Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, etc., had to await Christ's saving action to enter into Heaven. Those souls were disembodied, but waited for Christ to unlock heaven. This Sheol that they waited in was a temporal existence.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='scardella' post='1901194' date='Jun 25 2009, 09:47 AM']That doesn't make any sense. The only thing that existed "before" time is God. Only eternal (read uncreated) things have existed "before" time. Without time, you cannot have change. Thus, all Creation has taken place in time.[/quote]

This is not exactly correct. Time is a function of creation part of it. Time was created. Matter could have easily existed before time ( in fact science tells use that it did), so why could angels have not existed be for time?

[quote name='scardella' post='1901194' date='Jun 25 2009, 09:47 AM']You're equating a temporal state with physical existence. That appears to be your error. You also seem to be contradicting yourself. The suffering of Purgatory is spiritual. When you're in Purgatory, you do not have a body that can suffer physically. Purgatory IS a purely spiritual experience after (in a literal temporal sense) death. In terms of looking at it from a temporal point of view, if you've died and you are suffering in Purgatory, that means that you have not entered heaven yet. It is quite impossible for you to be suffering spiritually and being perfected by God's grace, yet at the same time in the beatific vision of God, before which nothing imperfect can stand.

Furthermore, we have seen that dead people's souls have a temporal existence without being in hell or heaven biblically. Before Christ's death and resurrection, the souls of the righteous men and women of the Old Testament, eg Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, etc., had to await Christ's saving action to enter into Heaven. Those souls were disembodied, but waited for Christ to unlock heaven. This Sheol that they waited in was a temporal existence.[/quote]


I agee with everything you said here.

Edited June 25, 2009 by Don John of Austria

[thessalonian]

Regarding the Orthodox and purgatory, their position is very interesting on many of the doctrines. For instance on the Eucharist they are basically Catholic but don't use the term transubstantiation. Why? Because ts was not a term applied to the Eucharist until after the split in 1054. Likewise purgatory was applied to that state after life where the soul is being purified at the council of flourence in the 13th Century, again after the split. I don't hear that purgatory is a big dividing point between Catholicism and Orthodoxy and so I would assume that for the most part they don't have a big problem with it. The Orthodox are in many ways a snapshot of what Catholicism was in 1054. They actually afirm the Catholic Church by this snapshot than anything.

[mortify]

"Time" in purgatory is something else, usually called aevum if I'm not mistaken.

[kafka]

[quote name='mortify' post='1902554' date='Jun 26 2009, 11:45 PM']"Time" in purgatory is something else, usually called aevum if I'm not mistaken.[/quote]
The scholastics used the term aeviternity to refer to the measure of spirtual substances.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1902294' date='Jun 26 2009, 02:58 PM']Likewise purgatory was applied to that state after life where the soul is being purified at the council of flourence in the 13th Century, again after the split.[/quote]

The bishops from the Byzantine Empire were at the Council of Florence and signed its decrees.

Edited June 27, 2009 by Resurrexi

[mortify]

[quote name='scardella' post='1900738' date='Jun 24 2009, 03:50 PM']Background:
- Sin does damage to us in addition to the actual sin itself.
- When our sins are forgiven, those wounds from the sin remain, although the sin itself is forgiven. That is why, for example, we retain concupiscence even after being baptized. It's also why if I hit myself, I still feel pain even if I go to confession afterward.
<snip>
- Penance for sins is intended to open yourself and others to the healing grace of God as well as help you to avoid the sin in the future.[/quote]

I think it's true that when we sin there is an effect on our spirit and body, and that this needs to be corrected, but usually when penance was spoken of it was related to temporal punishment. i.e. if I commit a serious sin there is still some temporal punishment associated with it after my forgiveness, and so a penance is required.