Purgatory

[Patrick]

OK. Explain this purgatory thing to me. Why is it a necessary construct?

[Marie-Therese]

First, I am curious. Eastern Orthodox does not believe in Purgatory?

Second, I will do what I can as a non-theologian to answer, with a caveat that I defer to any expert theologian.

The doctrine of purgatory states that one must be perfect to enter into the beatific vision of God. A person might die having been absolved of the guilt of all sin, but might still have some temporal punishment that was not expiated prior to death. Purgatory is a place of final purification where those debts are cleansed, prior to that soul proceeding forward into Heaven. All souls in Purgatory will go to Heaven once those sin debts are cleansed.

Does this answer your question?

Pax Christi!

[princessgianna]

Purgatory is necessary because it cleans the soul that does not deserve hell.
To be cleansed, for "nothing unclean shall enter [heaven]" (Rev. 21:27). Anyone who has not been completely freed of sin and its effects is, to some extent, "unclean." Through repentance he may have gained the grace needed to be worthy of heaven, which is to say, he has been forgiven and his soul is spiritually alive. But that’s not sufficient for gaining entrance into heaven. He needs to be cleansed completely.

Blessings
Gianna

Edited June 19, 2009 by princessgianna

[Patrick]

[quote name='Marie-Therese' post='1895580' date='Jun 18 2009, 08:24 PM']First, I am curious. Eastern Orthodox does not believe in Purgatory?[/quote]

No. I'm fairly sure it doesn't.

[quote]Does this answer your question?[/quote]

Partly, thank you.

Ultimately, I'm trying to figure out why Catholicism does believe in it and Orthodoxy doesn't. There's a problem that the construct of Purgatory is trying to solve (hence my question -- why is it necessary). Your answer, and PrincessGianna's answer, is that nothing unclean can enter heaven, as in Revelation. That's helpful.

The next step is to figure out whether this same problem is handled differently between Catholicism and Orthodoxy, or whether we just don't have that problem. If not, then why not?

[LouisvilleFan]

I'm pretty sure the Orthodox believe in some sort of a purification between death and entrance into Heaven. They obviously don't use the word "purgatory," but the concept is about the same. Wouldn't it be the completion of theosis?

[Patrick]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1895899' date='Jun 19 2009, 07:41 AM']I'm pretty sure the Orthodox believe in some sort of a purification between death and entrance into Heaven. They obviously don't use the word "purgatory," but the concept is about the same. Wouldn't it be the completion of theosis?[/quote]

This article answered my latter question: [url="http://aggreen.net/beliefs/heaven_hell.html"]http://aggreen.net/beliefs/heaven_hell.html[/url]

In summary (though I would highly recommend reading the article), Orthodox do not believe that time passes in the afterlife, which which it is possible to change. The time for change is [i]now[/i], in [i]this[/i] life. This is the time for perfection! Do not put it off until that time when it is too late!

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Patrick' post='1896034' date='Jun 19 2009, 04:09 PM']This article answered my latter question: [url="http://aggreen.net/beliefs/heaven_hell.html"]http://aggreen.net/beliefs/heaven_hell.html[/url]

In summary (though I would highly recommend reading the article), Orthodox do not believe that time passes in the afterlife, which which it is possible to change. The time for change is [i]now[/i], in [i]this[/i] life. This is the time for perfection! Do not put it off until that time when it is too late![/quote]

I'll check out the article, but just clarify, we agree that whatever happens in the afterlife is outside of time. All we know is it's a painful purification from earthly attachments, and since dead is dead, at that point you are outta time.

And, yes, the time for change is now. "Now is the day of salvation." (2 Cor 6:2)

Edited June 19, 2009 by LouisvilleFan

[Patrick]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1896088' date='Jun 19 2009, 02:30 PM']I'll check out the article, but just clarify, we agree that whatever happens in the afterlife is outside of time. All we know is it's a painful purification from earthly attachments, and since dead is dead, at that point you are outta time.

And, yes, the time for change is now. "Now is the day of salvation." (2 Cor 6:2)[/quote]

OK, I'll grant you that Chopelas' statements about purgatory and how long it takes to purify ones sins aren't strictly necessary from the texts he's quoting. I've heard this said of the Catholic notion of purgatory before, though, so I didn't think twice about it.

I don't understand how you can have change (purification) in a context that is timeless and unchanging (the afterlife).

What about his statement about purgatory being "a place of torment apart from God"? Do Catholics believe that?

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Patrick' post='1896106' date='Jun 19 2009, 05:13 PM']OK, I'll grant you that Chopelas' statements about purgatory and how long it takes to purify ones sins aren't strictly necessary from the texts he's quoting. I've heard this said of the Catholic notion of purgatory before, though, so I didn't think twice about it.

I don't understand how you can have change (purification) in a context that is timeless and unchanging (the afterlife).

What about his statement about purgatory being "a place of torment apart from God"? Do Catholics believe that?[/quote]


catholics believe that it is is a plase of being Purged, and that that includes positive punishment. Being apart from God is a delicate matter, apart as in HELL no, Apart as in not enjoying the Beatific vision, Yes.


The afterlife is not and unchanging. New people become saints, new people become damned. Purgatory is where the saved who still must be clensed go to be cleansed.


Okay I am going to try and explain by analogy, like all analogy it is not perfect, it is just an model to help in understanding.

Thank of the soul as a Chalkboard. At Birth the Chalkboard is already got chalk (sin) on it, baptism erases this sin AND washes it way completely. However, as we go through life we continue to sin and mark up our chalkboard. Confession and Penance erases the Chalkboard, butthat annoying dust is still there, merit helps to wash away the dust. If one dies and one has an erased chalkboard or a one without any major sins on it ( mortal sins) when one is not Damned, however, since one must be Perfectly clean to enter Heaven one must be cleaned of sin. Purgatory is where the Chalkboard gets scrubbed..... and the scrubbing hurts.



Again this is not a perfect model but it might be helpful.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Patrick' post='1896034' date='Jun 19 2009, 01:09 PM']This article answered my latter question: [url="http://aggreen.net/beliefs/heaven_hell.html"]http://aggreen.net/beliefs/heaven_hell.html[/url]

In summary (though I would highly recommend reading the article), Orthodox do not believe that time passes in the afterlife, which which it is possible to change. The time for change is [i]now[/i], in [i]this[/i] life. This is the time for perfection! Do not put it off until that time when it is too late![/quote]
I posted that article in Transmundane Lane back in January in another thread. It is very informative.

Click the link to read through that old thread: [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s=&showtopic=89237&view=findpost&p=1747446"][u]My Response, (to 'I can't deal anymore!')[/u][/url]

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Patrick' post='1896106' date='Jun 19 2009, 06:13 PM']OK, I'll grant you that Chopelas' statements about purgatory and how long it takes to purify ones sins aren't strictly necessary from the texts he's quoting. I've heard this said of the Catholic notion of purgatory before, though, so I didn't think twice about it.[/quote]

Well, Chopelas' article is pretty long... gonna take a pass on reading it. I ran a quick search for the word "Catholic" and it's immediately obvious he is biased towards Eastern Orthodoxy. When you say things like, "Look at what these Christians believe, then read Scripture," you clearly have an axe to grind. What kind of person thinks any Christian is consciously contradicting Scripture? That's just silly... I give a lapsed Orthodox way more credit than this guy gives the pope.

That said, I don't know anything about how long it takes to purify sins... as a Christian, I focus on following Christ with my whole being in this life. If my aim and purpose is to be in heaven, why get distracted with details about purgatory? I fully believe it exists, but I see no reason to acknowledge anything more than its existence.

By the way, just check out this paragraph and see how Chopelas puts words into the Catholic Catechism... pay attention to what is in quotes and what parts are [i]his[/i] words:

[quote]Purgatory, according to the "Catechism of the Catholic Church" article 1030-1031, is defined as the place of "All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified…after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven." The more purging that is necessary, the longer one must spend in purgatory. Further, in article 1032, "The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead…" presumably to hasten how quickly one may complete this purging.[/quote]

Sneaky feller.

[quote name='Patrick' post='1896106' date='Jun 19 2009, 06:13 PM']I don't understand how you can have change (purification) in a context that is timeless and unchanging (the afterlife).[/quote]

I don't know either... but it's God's work and it occurs outside of time... that's all I need to know.

[quote name='Patrick' post='1896106' date='Jun 19 2009, 06:13 PM']What about his statement about purgatory being "a place of torment apart from God"? Do Catholics believe that?[/quote]

[url="http://ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=purgatory&xsubmit=Search&s=SS"]Here's[/url] what the Catechism says about purgatory. Nothing about a place. Chopelas thinks we believe it's a place, but he didn't get that from our Catechism. It's a purification. I think people too often try to complicate it, but to me it's a pretty simple concept.

Edited June 20, 2009 by LouisvilleFan

[Patrick]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1896354' date='Jun 19 2009, 10:55 PM']Well, Chopelas' article is pretty long... gonna take a pass on reading it. I ran a quick search for the word "Catholic" and it's immediately obvious he is biased towards Eastern Orthodoxy. When you say things like, "Look at what these Christians believe, then read Scripture," you clearly have an axe to grind. What kind of person thinks any Christian is consciously contradicting Scripture? That's just silly... I give a lapsed Orthodox way more credit than this guy gives the pope.[/quote]

Sorry. I wasn't trying to be devious in posting it. I should have mentioned that it sounds like he's Orthodox.

I really do think he has some marvelous points of biblical exposition, in following the concept of Shekinah glory/divine fire throughout Scripture, as well as the concept of Hades and its translational issues. That was the content of my endorsement.

Regarding giving a fair treatment of opposing points of view, I agree with you in that he does not do a very good job. But I'll retouch on that in a moment.

[quote]By the way, just check out this paragraph and see how Chopelas puts words into the Catholic Catechism... pay attention to what is in quotes and what parts are [i]his[/i] words:

Sneaky feller.[/quote]

Yes! It was that very paragraph that I reread after the posts above, and concluded that he can't draw those conclusions from those texts, as I already mentioned. It is a common conception of Catholic theology, so he might not have been aware he was doing it, but is still unwarranted.

[quote][url="http://ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=purgatory&xsubmit=Search&s=SS"]Here's[/url] what the Catechism says about purgatory. Nothing about a place. Chopelas thinks we believe it's a place, but he didn't get that from our Catechism. It's a purification. I think people too often try to complicate it, but to me it's a pretty simple concept.[/quote]

Good, thank you. This sort of refinement is why I've been hanging around. If I'm to agree or disagree with the Roman Catholic Church on various issues, I'd rather it be from firsthand sources.

So, if purgatory-in-time is debunked, I'm back to the issue of the core problem (purification of those entering Heaven, since none impure can). What do the Orthodox do with this problem, or is it a problem to them? My best guess at this point is that we would say we have to purify ourselves in this life -- that none of it takes place after we die -- but that's only a guess.

I'm not sure if this question can be answered, but why is Purgatory-in-time such a common conception of Catholic theology? How did that come about? Was there someone in particular who introduced teaching that?

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Patrick' post='1896416' date='Jun 20 2009, 01:58 AM']Sorry. I wasn't trying to be devious in posting it. I should have mentioned that it sounds like he's Orthodox.

I really do think he has some marvelous points of biblical exposition, in following the concept of Shekinah glory/divine fire throughout Scripture, as well as the concept of Hades and its translational issues. That was the content of my endorsement.

Regarding giving a fair treatment of opposing points of view, I agree with you in that he does not do a very good job. But I'll retouch on that in a moment.



Yes! It was that very paragraph that I reread after the posts above, and concluded that he can't draw those conclusions from those texts, as I already mentioned. It is a common conception of Catholic theology, so he might not have been aware he was doing it, but is still unwarranted.



Good, thank you. This sort of refinement is why I've been hanging around. If I'm to agree or disagree with the Roman Catholic Church on various issues, I'd rather it be from firsthand sources.

So, if purgatory-in-time is debunked, I'm back to the issue of the core problem (purification of those entering Heaven, since none impure can). What do the Orthodox do with this problem, or is it a problem to them? My best guess at this point is that we would say we have to purify ourselves in this life -- that none of it takes place after we die -- but that's only a guess.

I'm not sure if this question can be answered, but why is Purgatory-in-time such a common conception of Catholic theology? How did that come about? Was there someone in particular who introduced teaching that?[/quote]

You were discussing how important the Fathers are to you. You might like this patristic quote:

"As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He Who is Truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come." (St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4,39)

[Patrick]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1896712' date='Jun 20 2009, 11:13 AM']You were discussing how important the Fathers are to you. You might like this patristic quote:

"As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He Who is Truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come." (St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4,39)[/quote]

Interesting! At the very least, interesting because I had no idea this way of thinking was so early. Thank you.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Patrick' post='1896416' date='Jun 20 2009, 02:58 AM']So, if purgatory-in-time is debunked, I'm back to the issue of the core problem (purification of those entering Heaven, since none impure can). What do the Orthodox do with this problem, or is it a problem to them? My best guess at this point is that we would say we have to purify ourselves in this life -- that none of it takes place after we die -- but that's only a guess.[/quote]

I think the crux of it is, like many East-West misunderstandings, Western Christians prefer a more scientific approach to theology and seeking to understanding things more and more objectively where Eastern Christians have preferred emphasizing the mystery. Going by [url="http://orthodoxwiki.org/Purgatory"]OrthodoxWiki[/url], it sounds like there isn't a consensus on what happens between death and heaven, if anything.

[quote name='Patrick' post='1896416' date='Jun 20 2009, 02:58 AM']I'm not sure if this question can be answered, but why is Purgatory-in-time such a common conception of Catholic theology? How did that come about? Was there someone in particular who introduced teaching that?[/quote]

From what I've read, it comes from standards that were set (and even published) that so many months or years penance had to be completed to make reparation for certain sins. That was always in reference to time in this life, not time in purgatory, but it's easy to see how those could be confused.

I've also read testimonies of saints who had visions of people in purgatory and how their prayers or Masses prayed for them would help them gain access to heaven sooner, but I feel like that can be explained not in the sense that you spend time in purgatory, but that the sanctifying suffering of purgatory (which occurs outside of time) is best interpreted to us who are living in time as a period of time because time is what we know and experience.