Nature Of Hell

[Gregorius]

Okay, so I saw the topic about the nature of Heaven, and this reminded me of a question that had been circling between me and two other people a while ago- what is the nature of Hell? Popular conception has it as a place of torment, fire, brimstone, e.t.c.; and others have said it is the absence of God. In order for anything to exist in any moment of time, God needs to create and sustain it. If God were to be absent, it would be like eternal death, another conception of Hell. If God were to be sustaining it as a place of torment , perhaps it could be Lazarus and the rich man where the rich man suffers but he can still see God and Lazarus far off tough eternally separated from Him. I just recently learned of a certain Orthodox point of view where Heaven and Hell are the same and for sinners the presence of God is a burning tormenting fire, if I read that correctly. I don't understand it, but perhaps one of you can clarify it.
So what do you all think?

[Gregoriana of Nyssa]

I go with the Orthodox view. Though, of course, what any of us believes doesn't change the fact that nobody knows for sure on this side.

To clarify the "burning fire" position, check out [url="http://www.orthodoxpress.org/parish/river_of_fire.htm"]The River of Fire[/url]. Though keep in mind it does get very polemical towards Western theology. What it describes as "Western" theology--I'm not sure which branch of the church it means. From what I've learned of Catholic teaching, what ROF describes fits far better with Protestant Calvinist teachings than with Catholic.

Anyway, my priest says that Hell is not physical or material as we are: Everything will be transformed at the Resurrection, no longer material as we know it now. Pictures of Hell are made material so we understand the devastation of it. We can burn inside without being materially affected.

[StColette]

[quote name='Gregoriana of Nyssa' post='1895386' date='Jun 18 2009, 04:38 PM']I go with the Orthodox view. [/quote]

Could you explain the Orthodox view, please?


Already on II of the River of Fire and seeing some serious bias and misinformation about Western Theology, at least from a Catholic stand point.

[Gregoriana of Nyssa]

[quote name='StColette' post='1895389' date='Jun 18 2009, 03:46 PM']Could you explain the Orthodox view, please?


Already on II of the River of Fire and seeing some serious bias and misinformation about Western Theology, at least from a Catholic stand point.[/quote]

1) It's in the last paragraph of my last post.

2) I have actually found theology like that in some of the Protestant churches. That's why I noted it's more like Calvinism than Catholicism.

[Patrick]

Here's one source: [url="http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/orth_cath_diff.aspx"]http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/orth_cath_diff.aspx[/url]. See point #11.

In general, though, it seems to me (I haven't read this anywhere per se) that some of the difference between Catholic and Orthodox views of heaven/hell, and between some Protestant and Orthodox views of heaven/hell, derive from a difference in causation, if you will. There's a difference between "imposed result" and "natural result", if you will (I'm coining these terms for the purpose of this discussion). Imposed result, is for example believing that "God sends you to hell" is equivalent to something like "You sinned. God cast judgement on you. God imposes hell upon you because of your choices." Natural result are more things that follow as a natural consequence of your actions. "God sends you to hell" would be more "Sin is choosing death over life, since sin is the rejection of God Who is the source of life. It is a natural result."

Similar to the difference between parents who might punish their (older) child for spending their money frivolously by some arbitrary means, and the parent who sets up the system such that the child is responsible for their clothes as well as recreational items and frivolous spending cuts into other areas of the child's own budget.

If it can be accepted that hell is the natural result of your own good, God-given free will abused, then you can take ahold of the responsibility you have over your soul, and start leaving aside the feelings of objection against God, and start working on fixing your own soul.

I'm not, by this, implying that God will not judge in the last days. I'm just saying that it's not arbitrary judgments, and that God has graciously instituted this system whereby we can get past the rules and move on to perfecting ourselves. Much like classroom rules. (I was an elementary teacher for a year). The sooner you establish the rules and their consequences (not just lay them out, but get the kids to ingrain them and know they have to follow them, and to assume the consequences for their actions), the sooner you have self-imposed class order.

Edited June 18, 2009 by Patrick

[CatherineM]

I have always visualized Hell as nothingness, the absence of God.

[Patrick]

As to the natural result of Hell is a Fire, have you not felt the uncomfortability of having to be in the presence of someone you have sinned against? The worse the sin, the more uncomfortable. The more you respect the person you sinned against, the more uncomfortable. Sin is a destroyer in personal relationships, human-God relationships also. God is everywhere present and fillest all things. Who can escape God? The knowledge of the entirety of our sins and their consequences will be evident to us in those days, even if they aren't now, and how can we respond when it is our own conscience that accuses us?

Lord, have mercy.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1895414' date='Jun 18 2009, 03:33 PM']I have always visualized Hell as nothingness, the absence of God.[/quote]
For St. Maximos hell is the presence of God experienced by those who rejected Him.

[Patrick]

One last notes on my idiosyncratic thoughts: of course, it's a balance. I just mention this because some people get hung up on "God is doing this to people!" They'd do better to realize that it's the natural consequence of their actions. Other people would do well to realize that it is not their own judgment alone that matters -- that there really is someone else who is in charge and His ideas of morality might be different than yours, and the recognition of God as Judge can be very helpful. I was trying to talk to the former person more than the latter.

[Apotheoun]

Hell is the creation of the damned.

[Patrick]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1895438' date='Jun 18 2009, 04:27 PM']Hell is the creation of the damned.[/quote]

I'm not disagreeing with you, I don't think.

[Apotheoun]

[i]Here is what St. Maximos the Confessor said on the topic in his "Fourth Century on Various Texts" (no. 20):[/i]

Nature does not contain the inner principles of what is beyond nature any more than it contains the inner principles of what is contrary to nature. By what is beyond nature I mean the divine and inconceivable pleasure which God naturally produces in those found worthy of being united with Him through grace. By what is contrary to nature I mean the indescribable pain brought about by the privation of such pleasure. This pain God naturally produces in the unworthy when He is united to them in a manner contrary to grace. [b]For God is united with all men according to the underlying quality of their inner state[/b]; and, at the creation of each person, He provides each person with the capacity to perceive and sense Him when He is united in one way or another with all men at the end of the ages.

Edited June 18, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Patrick]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1895456' date='Jun 18 2009, 05:30 PM'][i]Here is what St. Maximos the Confessor said on the topic in his "Fourth Century on Various Texts" (no. 20):[/i]

Nature does not contain the inner principles of what is beyond nature any more than it contains the inner principles of what is contrary to nature. By what is beyond nature I mean the divine and inconceivable pleasure which God naturally produces in those found worthy of being united with Him through grace. By what is contrary to nature I mean the indescribable pain brought about by the privation of such pleasure. This pain God naturally produces in the unworthy when He is united to them in a manner contrary to grace. [b]For God is united with all men according to the underlying quality of their inner state[/b]; and, at the creation of each person, He provides each person with the capacity to perceive and sense Him when He is united in one way or another with all men at the end of the ages.[/quote]

That's not contrary to my understandings and beliefs. I must not be doing very well in expressing myself. I'll retract my personal observations.

EDIT: Oh, I can't edit them so as to delete them. Too old?

Edited June 18, 2009 by Patrick

[White Knight]

I'd say Hell is a mixture of Darkness like the scriptures say, but its torments are mixed with the memories of your sins commited while here on Earth, and with whatever is actually punishing you in hell at the sametime.

You'll have unforgetable sorrow for your sins that you commited while on Earth, mixed with the actual torments themselves in Hell, my take on it is, that its eternal darkness, with pains that nobody wants to imagine, that you can feel. such as "Weeping and gashing of Teeth." "Where the fire quenches not" "The Worm does not die." hundreds of billions of demons, and damned souls, constantly killing eachother over and over again, with no end, it repeats itself for all eternity. Its another Dimension above the Natural, since its a "Supernatural" state, location, or condiction, like Heaven, but the extact opposite of Heaven's effects, where Heaven is Pleasant for all Eternity, Hell is Tormenting forever for all eternity. [color="#FF00FF"][size=4][b]Now I do have to say that some of this what I have listed is from the Sacred Scriptures, but a lot of it is personal reflections so dont take it as proof postitive that this is extactly what it is, I'm only listening my speculations and discernments on it.[/b][/size][/color]


[size=6][color="#8B0000"][b]But I believe it is 100% accurate to say that we will never know extactly what Hell is like while on Earth, all we have is speculations given to us, but the only way to find out for sure is to go there, and I hope for everyone that we dont see that dreaded feared existance of Hell.[/b][/color][/size]

From Aaron.
God Bless You All.
Pax Christi.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Patrick' post='1895460' date='Jun 18 2009, 05:35 PM']That's not contrary to my understandings and beliefs. I must not be doing very well in expressing myself. I'll retract my personal observations.

EDIT: Oh, I can't edit them so as to delete them. Too old?[/quote]
I didn't quote the text because I thought your views were contrary to what St. Maximos said, I just found his teaching instructive.