Should Heretics Be Burned?

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1896255' date='Jun 19 2009, 08:57 PM']Latins made up less than five percent of the population, and yet the Roman Rite became normative throughout the Latin Patriarchate of Constantinople. It is the events that follow the Fourth Crusade (i.e., the sixty years of Latin rule) that -- more than anything -- caused the bitterness of the Orthodox against the Western Church. As one of my professors at FUS used to say, ". . . the schism between East and West didn't really happen in 1054; instead, it happened during the years 1204 to 1261."[/quote]

Perhaps Innocent III was wrong if he tried to suppress the Byzantine Rite, but we must remember that there is guilt in both sides. Does the massacre of the Latins not matter to you?

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1896255' date='Jun 19 2009, 08:57 PM']Latins made up less than five percent of the population, and yet the Roman Rite became normative throughout the Latin Patriarchate of Constantinople. It is the events that follow the Fourth Crusade (i.e., the sixty years of Latin rule) that -- more than anything -- caused the bitterness of the Orthodox against the Western Church. As one of my professors at FUS used to say, ". . . the schism between East and West didn't really happen in 1054; instead, it happened during the years 1204 to 1261."[/quote]


Riiiiggggghhhhhttttt.


Perhaps from an Eastern point of view that is true, but the Empire and the Greek Church had already long since alienated the West by there repeated treaties with the Moslems many of which were at the detriment of the Crusader states. THis is largley why the Curusaders were okay with taking the city to begin with.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1896261' date='Jun 19 2009, 07:01 PM']Riiiiggggghhhhhttttt.


Perhaps from an Eastern point of view that is true, but the Empire and the Greek Church had already long since alienated the West by there repeated treaties with the Moslems many of which were at the detriment of the Crusader states. THis is largley why the Curusaders were okay with taking the city to begin with.[/quote]
Maybe you're just to young to remember what John Paul II did on what he called the "Day of Pardon," but he apologized to God (he couldn't apologize to those who were harmed by the sons of the Church, since they have been long dead) for the acts of violence performed in defense of the truth. It is not a sign of weakness to recognize that the members of the Church have at many times failed to live up to the Gospel as they should.

Certainly the scholastic errors of the Western Church alienated the Orthodox, but the Roman Church has -- in recent years -- tried to overcome its medieval mindset. Eastern Catholics for example no longer recite the filioque in the creed, because it has no meaning in our theological tradition, and Rome has no problem with our actions in that regard.

Edited June 20, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1896265' date='Jun 19 2009, 09:05 PM']Maybe you're just to young to remember what John Paul II did on what he called the "Day of Pardon," but he apologized to God (he couldn't apologize to those who were harmed by the sons of the Church, since they have been long dead) for the acts of violence performed in defense of the truth. It is not a sign of weakness to recognize that the members of the Church have at many times failed to live up to the Gospel as they should.

Certainly the scholastic errors of the Western Church alienated the Orthodox, but the Roman Church has -- in recent years -- tried to overcome its medieval mindset. Eastern Catholics for example no longer recite the filioque in the creed, because it has no meaning in our theological tradition, and Rome has no problem with our actions in that regard.[/quote]


Nope. I remember JPII's entire reign. I was not overly impressed. I would much rather have had an Urban II redo. I am offended by the term "scholastic errors" and I pray that the Church will never, "overcome its medieval mindset" that schism would certianly profit no one. You and I often do not agree, but I have never gone out of my way to insult the theological tradition of the Eastern Church. I would appreciate it if you would do the same for the Western Church.

As for the recetation of the filioque by Eastern Catholics, there has really been no [i]need [/i] for that since Florence has there, or do we forget about that little [i]Medieval[/i] meeting.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1896276' date='Jun 19 2009, 07:17 PM']Nope. I remember JPII's entire reign. I was not overly impressed. I would much rather have had an Urban II redo. I am offended by the term "scholastic errors" and I pray that the Church will never, "overcome its medieval mindset" that schism would certianly profit no one. You and I often do not agree, but I have never gone out of my way to insult the theological tradition of the Eastern Church. I would appreciate it if you would do the same for the Western Church.

As for the recetation of the filioque by Eastern Catholics, there has really been no [i]need [/i] for that since Florence has there, or do we forget about that little [i]Medieval[/i] meeting.[/quote]
You may want to read his homily on the Day of Pardon, and the document that was issued by the ITC on the purification of memory.

As far as Florence is concerned, the Melkite Catholic Patriarch and the Holy Synod of the Melkite Church hold that that council is not ecumenical or binding. Florence taught error on the procession of the Holy Spirit and so if one were to assert that its decrees were truly dogmatic it would mean that the Roman Church has embraced heresy. The [i]ekporeusis[/i] (procession) of the Holy Spirit is from the Father alone, and not from or through the Son. While the [i]proienai[/i] (progression or movement) of the Spirit's energies is from the Father through the Son in the Spirit, and Rome has recognized this distinction at least since the mid-1990s when the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity issued the "clarification on the filioque," which had been requested by Pope John Paul II.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1896276' date='Jun 19 2009, 09:17 PM']Nope. I remember JPII's entire reign. I was not overly impressed. I would much rather have had an Urban II redo. I am offended by the term "scholastic errors" and I pray that the Church will never, "overcome its medieval mindset" that schism would certianly profit no one. You and I often do not agree, but I have never gone out of my way to insult the theological tradition of the Eastern Church. I would appreciate it if you would do the same for the Western Church.

As for the recetation of the filioque by Eastern Catholics, there has really been no [i]need [/i] for that since Florence has there, or do we forget about that little [i]Medieval[/i] meeting.[/quote]



Once again none of this has to do with the thread topic.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1896282' date='Jun 19 2009, 07:24 PM']Once again none of this has to do with the thread topic.[/quote]
It does, because the Pope has apologized for the violence perpetrated by the members of the Church in the past.

[Patrick]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1896259' date='Jun 19 2009, 06:59 PM']John Paul II -- in the purification of memory ceremony back in 2000 -- apologized for the acts of violence performed by the sons of the Church against heretics, jews, etc. That is old news.[/quote]

Not to me. I didn't know that.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Patrick' post='1896287' date='Jun 19 2009, 07:40 PM']Not to me. I didn't know that.[/quote]
On 12 March 2000 the pope led a service of repentance, in which he asked God to forgive the sons of the Church for their failings throughout history.

The Church is of course the sinless bride of Christ, but she remains in constant need of forgiveness in her members who -- as individuals -- remain sinners in need of God's mercy and grace. The pope's concern for beginning the new millennium with a call to repentance for past sins was one part of his overall strategy for -- what he called -- "the new evangelization."

Edited June 20, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1896281' date='Jun 19 2009, 09:23 PM']You may want to read his homily on the Day of Pardon, and the document that was issued by the ITC on the purification of memory.[/quote]

You tell people to read a document by the International Theological Commission, whose documents are neither binding or magisterial, yet you say that the CDF document on the Professio Fidei is just Joseph Cardinal Ratznger's private opinion and therefore need not to be read.

By the way, has Bishop Bartholomew ever apologized for the massacre of the Latins?

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1896281' date='Jun 19 2009, 09:23 PM']You may want to read his homily on the Day of Pardon, and the document that was issued by the ITC on the purification of memory.

As far as Florence is concerned, the Melkite Catholic Patriarch and the Holy Synod of the Melkite Church hold that that council is not ecumenical or binding. Florence taught error on the procession of the Holy Spirit and so if one were to assert that its decrees were truly dogmatic it would mean that the Roman Church has embraced heresy. The [i]ekporeusis[/i] (procession) of the Holy Spirit is from the Father alone, and not from or through the Son. While the [i]proienai[/i] (progression or movement) of the Spirit's energies is from the Father through the Son in the Spirit, and Rome has recognized this distinction at least since the mid-1990s when the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity issued the "clarification on the filioque," which had been requested by Pope John Paul II.[/quote]


Then The Melkite Catholic Patriarch is in error, and ahould be disiplined accordingly. There is nothing else to say. One cannot just pick and choose which Council you will honor as a Council. THe Church declares it is Ecumenical and I will not debate the issue there is no need, the Orthodox don't honor most of the Councils. This is a serious problem for any real reapproachment.

Just reread it, and I am afriad it doesn't say whayt you say it says. In fact it kind of specifically rejects the term energy by translating the Greek ἐνέργεια which Greeks would say is energy as ACTION. This is a pretty dicided rejection of the Orthodox idea of the "divine energies". I will stand with St. Ambrose ,St. Hilary, St Augustine and St Leo the Great, that the Spirt proceeds eternally from the Father through the Son.

"The Greek ἐκπόρευσις signifies only the relationship of origin to the Father alone as the principle without principle of the Trinity. The Latin processio, on the contrary, is a more common term, signifying the communication of the consubstantial divinity from the Father to the Son and from the Father, through and with the Son, to the Holy Spirit.3 In confessing the Holy Spirit "ex Patre procedentem", the Latins, therefore, could only suppose an implicit Filioque which would later be made explicit in their liturgical version of the Symbol."


But that is niether her nor there, as I understand it the Orthodox do not accept doctrinally even that, but doctrinally accept only John 15:26.

[Vasilius Konstantinos]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1896303' date='Jun 19 2009, 10:18 PM']Then The Melkite Catholic Patriarch is in error, and ahould be disiplined accordingly. There is nothing else to say. One cannot just pick and choose which Council you will honor as a Council. THe Church declares it is Ecumenical and I will not debate the issue there is no need, the Orthodox don't honor most of the Councils. This is a serious problem for any real reapproachment.

Just reread it, and I am afriad it doesn't say whayt you say it says. In fact it kind of specifically rejects the term energy by translating the Greek ἐνέργεια which Greeks would say is energy as ACTION. This is a pretty dicided rejection of the Orthodox idea of the "divine energies". I will stand with St. Ambrose ,St. Hilary, St Augustine and St Leo the Great, that the Spirt proceeds eternally from the Father through the Son.

"The Greek ἐκπόρευσις signifies only the relationship of origin to the Father alone as the principle without principle of the Trinity. The Latin processio, on the contrary, is a more common term, signifying the communication of the consubstantial divinity from the Father to the Son and from the Father, through and with the Son, to the Holy Spirit.3 In confessing the Holy Spirit "ex Patre procedentem", the Latins, therefore, could only suppose an implicit Filioque which would later be made explicit in their liturgical version of the Symbol."


But that is niether her nor there, as I understand it the Orthodox do not accept doctrinally even that, but doctrinally accept only John 15:26.[/quote]

For some reason from many websites it looks like you copypastasta'd your ideas from others...

Anyways, I can do the same thing:

[b]Pope St. Leo III-[/b] Pope St. Leo III forbade the addition of "filioque" to the Nicene Creed which was added by Franks in Aachen in 809. He also ordered that the Nicene creed be engraved on silver tablets so that his conclusion might not be overturned in the future. He wrote «HAEC LEO POSUI AMORE ET CAUTELA ORTHODOXAE FIDEI» (I, Leo, put here for love and protection of orthodox faith)(VITA LEONIS, LIBER PONTIFICALIS (Ed.Duchene, TII, p.26)

[b]Pope St. Gregory the Great-[/b] "I say it without the least hesitation, whoever calls himself the universal bishop, or desires this title, is, by his pride, the precursor of Antichrist, because he thus attempts to raise himself above the others. The error into which he falls springs from pride equal to that of Antichrist; for as that Wicked One wished to be regarded as exalted above other men, like a god, so likewise whoever would be called sole bishop exalteth himself above others....You know it, my brother; hath not the venerable Council of Chalcedon conferred the honorary title of 'universal' upon the bishops of this Apostolic See [Rome], whereof I am, by God's will, the servant? And yet none of us hath permitted this title to be given to him; none hath assumed this bold title, lest by assuming a special distinction in the dignity of the episcopate, we should seem to refuse it to all the brethren."

[b]St. Photios, Patriarch of Constantinople-[/b] "Who of our sacred and renowned fathers had said that the Spirit proceeds from the Son? Which council, established and made eminent by ecumenical acknowledgment, has proclaimed it? Indeed, which God-called assembly of priests and high priests inspired by the All-holy Spirit has not condemned this notion even before it appeared? For they, having been initiated into the Father's Spirit according to the Master's mystagogy [i.e., St. John 15:26], proclaimed clearly and emphatically that the Spirit proceeds from the Father. And indeed, they subjected all who did not believe so to the anathema for being scorners of the Catholic and Apostolic Church; for in times past, they foresaw with prophetic eyes this newly spawned godlessness, and they condemned it in script and words and thought, along with the previous manifold apostasies. Of the Ecumenical Councils, the Second directly dogmatized that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father; the Third received this teaching in succession; the Fourth confirmed it; the Fifth was established in the same opinion; the Sixth preached the same; the Seventh sealed it splendidly with contests; in each Council is seen the open and clear proclamation of piety and of the doctrine that the Spirit proceeds from the Father, not from the Son. What godless herd taught you otherwise? Who of those who contravene the Master's ordinances has led you to fall into such lawless beliefs?"(On the Mystagogy of the Holy Spirit by Saint Photios, Patriarch of Constantinople)

[b]From the Synodicon of the Holy Spirit (to be read on the second day of Pentecost)-[/b] "So likewise do they who despise and disdain piety receive curses; wherefore, all we in unison, since we constitute the plentitude of piety, lay upon them the curse which they have put upon themselves." ' To those who do not deign to consent to the unaltered and unadulterated holy Symbol confessed by the Orthodox, that one, I mean, which was evangelically formulated by the First and Second Holy Councils and confirmed by the rest, but who rather amend it and distort it to support their own belief, thereby not only corrupting the conciliar traditions of the holy fathers and of the holy and God-instructed apostles, but also the definitions of our true God and Savior, Jesus Christ, ANATHEMA." ...

"To those who in any way undertake investigations into new doctrines concerning the divine and incomprehensible Trinity and who search out the difference between begetting and procession, and the nature of begetting and procession in God and who increase words and do not abide and persist in the definitions handed down to us by both the disciples of Christ and the divine fathers; and who thereby uselessly strive to dispute over things not delivered to us, ANATHEMA."

"To those who scorn the venerable and holy ecumenical Councils, and who despise even more their dogmatic and canonical traditions; and to those who say that all things were not perfectly defined and delivered by the councils, but that they left the greater part mysterious, unclear, and untaught, ANATHEMA."

"To those who hold in contempt the sacred and divine canons of our blessed fathers, which, by sustaining the holy Church of God and adorning the whole Christian Church, guide to divine reverence, ANATHEMA."

"To all things innovated and enacted contrary to the Church tradition, teaching, and institution of the holy and ever-memorable fathers, or to anything henceforth so enacted, ANATHEMA."

[b]SIGILLION of the Patriarchal formulation of an encyclical to Orthodox Christians throughout the world not to accept the modernistic Paschalion, or calendar of the innovated Menologion, but to keep what was once for all and well-formulated by the three hundred and eighteen Holy God-bearing Fathers of the First Ecumenical Council, under penalty of penance and anathema.[/b]

[i]Background: In 1583, the Pope of Rome, Gregory XIII, who changed the Julian calendar, repeatedly pressured the Patriarch of Constantinople, Jeremias, who was called Illustrious, to follow him in the calendar innovation. The Patriarch repeatedly refused with letters, and finally in the same year, 1583, he convened a council in Constantinople...[/i]

"To all the genuine Christian children of the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church of Christ of the East residing in Trigovysti and throughout the world, be grace and peace and mercy from God Almighty.

"No small turbulence overtook that ancient Ark, when, violently beset by billows, it floated upon the surface of the waters, and had not the Lord God remembered Noah and seen fit to still the water, there would have been no hope for it at all. Thus also in regard to the New Ark of our Church, against which misbelievers have launched an implacable war upon us, by means of these presents we have decided to leave a note that you may have in what is herein written the means of upholding and defending your Orthodoxy against such enemies more safely and surely.

But, lest the composition as a whole be weary to the simpler folks, we have decided to embody the matter in common langauge, wording it as follows: "In Common Language "From old Rome have come certain persons who learned there to wear Latin habits. The worst of it is how, from being Romans of Rumelia bred and born, they not only have changed their faith, but they even wage war upon the Orthodox dogmas and truths of the Eastern Church which have been delivered to us by Christ and the divine Apostles and the Holy Councils of the Holy Fathers.

Therefore, cutting off these persons as rotten members, we command:

1) That whoever does not confess with heart and mouth that he is a child of the Eastern Church baptized in Orthodox style, and that the Holy Spirit proceeds out of only the Father, essentially and hypostatically, as Christ says in the Gospel, shall be outside of our Church and shall be anathematized.

2) That whoever does not confess that at the Mystery of the Holy Communion the laity must also partake of both kinds, of the Precious Body and Blood, but instead says that he will partake only of the body, and that that is sufficient because therein is both flesh and blood, when as a matter of fact Christ died and administered each seperately, and they who fail to keep such customs, let all such persons be anathematized.

3) That whoever says that our Lord Jesus Christ at the Mystic Supper had unleavened bread (made without yeast), like that of the Jews, and not leavened bread, that is to say, bread raised with yeast, let him depart far away from us and let him be anathema as one having Jewish views and those of Apollinarios and bringing dogmas of the Armenians into the Church, on which account let him be doubly anathema.

4) Whoever says that our Christ and God, when he comes to judge us, does not come to judge souls together with bodies, or embodied souls, but instead comes to sentance only bodies, let him be anathema.

5) Whoever says that the souls of Christians who repented while in the world but failed to perform their penance go to a purgatory of fire when they die, where there is flame and punishment, and are purified, which is simply an ancient Greek myth, and those who, like Origen, think that hell is not everlasting, and thereby afford or offer the liberty or incentive to sin, let him and all such persons be anathema.

6) That whoever says that the Pope is the head of the Church, and not Christ, and that he has authority to admit persons to Paradise with his letters of indulgence or other passports, and can fogive sins as many as a person may commit if such person pay money to receive from him indulgences, i.e. licences to sin, let every such person be anathema.

7) That whoever does not follow the customs of the Church as the Seven Holy Ecumenical Councils decreed, and Holy Pascha, and the Menologion with which they did well in making it a law that we should follow it, and wishes to follow the newly-invented Paschalion and the New Menologion of the atheist astronomers of the Pope, and opposes all those things and wishes to overthrow and destroy the dogmas and customs of the Church which have been handed down by our fathers, let him suffer anathema and be put out of the Church of Christ and out of the Congregation of the Faithful.

8) That ye pious and Orthodox Christians remain faithful in what ye have been taught and have been born and brought up in, and when the time calls for it and there be need, that your very blood be shed in order to safeguard the Faith handed down by our Fathers and your confession: and that ye beware of such persons as have been described or referred to in the foregoing paragraphs, in order that our Lord Jesus Christ may help you and at the same time may the prayer of our mediocrity be with all of you: amen.

Done in the year of the God-man 1583 (MDLXXXIII), year of indiction 12, November 20 [O.S.]

Jeremiah of Constantinople
Silvester of Alexandria
Sophronius of Jerusalem

In the presence of the rest of the prelates at the Council."
[i]This is found in pages 13-15 of the Rudder[/i]

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' post='1894983' date='Jun 18 2009, 01:15 AM']By the French monarchy, not the Church.[/quote]

Are you sure?

[b]No words can adequately describe the disgraceful ingratitude and apathy of Charles and his advisers in leaving the Maid to her fate. If military force had not availed, they had prisoners like the Earl of Suffolk in their hands, for whom she could have been exchanged. Joan was sold by John of Luxembourg to the English for a sum which would amount to several hundred thousand dollars in modern money. There can be no doubt that the English, partly because they feared their prisoner with a superstitious terror, partly because they were ashamed of the dread which she inspired, were determined at all costs to take her life. They could not put her to death for having beaten them, but they could get her sentenced as a witch and a heretic.[/b]

Source: [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08409c.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08409c.htm[/url]

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1894995' date='Jun 18 2009, 01:39 AM']St. Thomas Becket was murdered in his cathedral by soldiers. Maybe the United States government should get rid of its soldeirs because they might murder a clergyman. [/quote]

I thought we were talking about St. Joan of Arc?

Besides, I find it a bit appalling that you are dismissing pure fact. She was tried before a court of the Inquisition, which you will read below.

[b]In a cell in the castle of Rouen to which Joan was moved two days before Christmas, she was chained to a plank bed, and watched over night and day. On February 21, 1431, she appeared for the first time before a court of the Inquisition. It was presided over by Pierre Cauchon, bishop of Beauvais, a ruthless, ambitious man who apparently hoped through English influence to become archbishop of Rouen. The other judges were lawyers and theologians who had been carefully selected by Cauchon. In the course of six public and nine private sessions, covering a period of ten weeks, the prisoner was cross-examined as to her visions and voices, her assumption of male attire, her faith, and her willingness to submit to the Church. Alone and undefended, the nineteen-year-old girl bore herself fearlessly, her shrewd answers, honesty, piety, and accurate memory often proving embarrassing to these severe inquisitors. Through her ignorance of theological terms, on a few occasions she was betrayed into making damaging statements. At the end of the hearings, a set of articles was drawn up by the clerks and submitted to the judges, who thereupon pronounced her revelations the work of the Devil and Joan herself a heretic. The theological faculty of the University of Paris approved the court's verdict.[/b]

Source: [url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/mary/joan.htm"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/mary/joan.htm[/url]

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Vasilius Konstantinos' post='1896333' date='Jun 19 2009, 11:58 PM']For some reason from many websites it looks like you copypastasta'd your ideas from others...

Anyways, I can do the same thing:

[b]Pope St. Leo III-[/b] Pope St. Leo III forbade the addition of "filioque" to the Nicene Creed which was added by Franks in Aachen in 809. He also ordered that the Nicene creed be engraved on silver tablets so that his conclusion might not be overturned in the future. He wrote «HAEC LEO POSUI AMORE ET CAUTELA ORTHODOXAE FIDEI» (I, Leo, put here for love and protection of orthodox faith)(VITA LEONIS, LIBER PONTIFICALIS (Ed.Duchene, TII, p.26)

[b]Pope St. Gregory the Great-[/b] "I say it without the least hesitation, whoever calls himself the universal bishop, or desires this title, is, by his pride, the precursor of Antichrist, because he thus attempts to raise himself above the others. The error into which he falls springs from pride equal to that of Antichrist; for as that Wicked One wished to be regarded as exalted above other men, like a god, so likewise whoever would be called sole bishop exalteth himself above others....You know it, my brother; hath not the venerable Council of Chalcedon conferred the honorary title of 'universal' upon the bishops of this Apostolic See [Rome], whereof I am, by God's will, the servant? And yet none of us hath permitted this title to be given to him; none hath assumed this bold title, lest by assuming a special distinction in the dignity of the episcopate, we should seem to refuse it to all the brethren."

[b]St. Photios, Patriarch of Constantinople-[/b] "Who of our sacred and renowned fathers had said that the Spirit proceeds from the Son? Which council, established and made eminent by ecumenical acknowledgment, has proclaimed it? Indeed, which God-called assembly of priests and high priests inspired by the All-holy Spirit has not condemned this notion even before it appeared? For they, having been initiated into the Father's Spirit according to the Master's mystagogy [i.e., St. John 15:26], proclaimed clearly and emphatically that the Spirit proceeds from the Father. And indeed, they subjected all who did not believe so to the anathema for being scorners of the Catholic and Apostolic Church; for in times past, they foresaw with prophetic eyes this newly spawned godlessness, and they condemned it in script and words and thought, along with the previous manifold apostasies. Of the Ecumenical Councils, the Second directly dogmatized that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father; the Third received this teaching in succession; the Fourth confirmed it; the Fifth was established in the same opinion; the Sixth preached the same; the Seventh sealed it splendidly with contests; in each Council is seen the open and clear proclamation of piety and of the doctrine that the Spirit proceeds from the Father, not from the Son. What godless herd taught you otherwise? Who of those who contravene the Master's ordinances has led you to fall into such lawless beliefs?"(On the Mystagogy of the Holy Spirit by Saint Photios, Patriarch of Constantinople)

[b]From the Synodicon of the Holy Spirit (to be read on the second day of Pentecost)-[/b] "So likewise do they who despise and disdain piety receive curses; wherefore, all we in unison, since we constitute the plentitude of piety, lay upon them the curse which they have put upon themselves." ' To those who do not deign to consent to the unaltered and unadulterated holy Symbol confessed by the Orthodox, that one, I mean, which was evangelically formulated by the First and Second Holy Councils and confirmed by the rest, but who rather amend it and distort it to support their own belief, thereby not only corrupting the conciliar traditions of the holy fathers and of the holy and God-instructed apostles, but also the definitions of our true God and Savior, Jesus Christ, ANATHEMA." ...

"To those who in any way undertake investigations into new doctrines concerning the divine and incomprehensible Trinity and who search out the difference between begetting and procession, and the nature of begetting and procession in God and who increase words and do not abide and persist in the definitions handed down to us by both the disciples of Christ and the divine fathers; and who thereby uselessly strive to dispute over things not delivered to us, ANATHEMA."

"To those who scorn the venerable and holy ecumenical Councils, and who despise even more their dogmatic and canonical traditions; and to those who say that all things were not perfectly defined and delivered by the councils, but that they left the greater part mysterious, unclear, and untaught, ANATHEMA."

"To those who hold in contempt the sacred and divine canons of our blessed fathers, which, by sustaining the holy Church of God and adorning the whole Christian Church, guide to divine reverence, ANATHEMA."

"To all things innovated and enacted contrary to the Church tradition, teaching, and institution of the holy and ever-memorable fathers, or to anything henceforth so enacted, ANATHEMA."

[b]SIGILLION of the Patriarchal formulation of an encyclical to Orthodox Christians throughout the world not to accept the modernistic Paschalion, or calendar of the innovated Menologion, but to keep what was once for all and well-formulated by the three hundred and eighteen Holy God-bearing Fathers of the First Ecumenical Council, under penalty of penance and anathema.[/b]

[i]Background: In 1583, the Pope of Rome, Gregory XIII, who changed the Julian calendar, repeatedly pressured the Patriarch of Constantinople, Jeremias, who was called Illustrious, to follow him in the calendar innovation. The Patriarch repeatedly refused with letters, and finally in the same year, 1583, he convened a council in Constantinople...[/i]

"To all the genuine Christian children of the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church of Christ of the East residing in Trigovysti and throughout the world, be grace and peace and mercy from God Almighty.

"No small turbulence overtook that ancient Ark, when, violently beset by billows, it floated upon the surface of the waters, and had not the Lord God remembered Noah and seen fit to still the water, there would have been no hope for it at all. Thus also in regard to the New Ark of our Church, against which misbelievers have launched an implacable war upon us, by means of these presents we have decided to leave a note that you may have in what is herein written the means of upholding and defending your Orthodoxy against such enemies more safely and surely.

But, lest the composition as a whole be weary to the simpler folks, we have decided to embody the matter in common langauge, wording it as follows: "In Common Language "From old Rome have come certain persons who learned there to wear Latin habits. The worst of it is how, from being Romans of Rumelia bred and born, they not only have changed their faith, but they even wage war upon the Orthodox dogmas and truths of the Eastern Church which have been delivered to us by Christ and the divine Apostles and the Holy Councils of the Holy Fathers.

Therefore, cutting off these persons as rotten members, we command:

1) That whoever does not confess with heart and mouth that he is a child of the Eastern Church baptized in Orthodox style, and that the Holy Spirit proceeds out of only the Father, essentially and hypostatically, as Christ says in the Gospel, shall be outside of our Church and shall be anathematized.

2) That whoever does not confess that at the Mystery of the Holy Communion the laity must also partake of both kinds, of the Precious Body and Blood, but instead says that he will partake only of the body, and that that is sufficient because therein is both flesh and blood, when as a matter of fact Christ died and administered each seperately, and they who fail to keep such customs, let all such persons be anathematized.

3) That whoever says that our Lord Jesus Christ at the Mystic Supper had unleavened bread (made without yeast), like that of the Jews, and not leavened bread, that is to say, bread raised with yeast, let him depart far away from us and let him be anathema as one having Jewish views and those of Apollinarios and bringing dogmas of the Armenians into the Church, on which account let him be doubly anathema.

4) Whoever says that our Christ and God, when he comes to judge us, does not come to judge souls together with bodies, or embodied souls, but instead comes to sentance only bodies, let him be anathema.

5) Whoever says that the souls of Christians who repented while in the world but failed to perform their penance go to a purgatory of fire when they die, where there is flame and punishment, and are purified, which is simply an ancient Greek myth, and those who, like Origen, think that hell is not everlasting, and thereby afford or offer the liberty or incentive to sin, let him and all such persons be anathema.

6) That whoever says that the Pope is the head of the Church, and not Christ, and that he has authority to admit persons to Paradise with his letters of indulgence or other passports, and can fogive sins as many as a person may commit if such person pay money to receive from him indulgences, i.e. licences to sin, let every such person be anathema.

7) That whoever does not follow the customs of the Church as the Seven Holy Ecumenical Councils decreed, and Holy Pascha, and the Menologion with which they did well in making it a law that we should follow it, and wishes to follow the newly-invented Paschalion and the New Menologion of the atheist astronomers of the Pope, and opposes all those things and wishes to overthrow and destroy the dogmas and customs of the Church which have been handed down by our fathers, let him suffer anathema and be put out of the Church of Christ and out of the Congregation of the Faithful.

8) That ye pious and Orthodox Christians remain faithful in what ye have been taught and have been born and brought up in, and when the time calls for it and there be need, that your very blood be shed in order to safeguard the Faith handed down by our Fathers and your confession: and that ye beware of such persons as have been described or referred to in the foregoing paragraphs, in order that our Lord Jesus Christ may help you and at the same time may the prayer of our mediocrity be with all of you: amen.

Done in the year of the God-man 1583 (MDLXXXIII), year of indiction 12, November 20 [O.S.]

Jeremiah of Constantinople
Silvester of Alexandria
Sophronius of Jerusalem

In the presence of the rest of the prelates at the Council."
[i]This is found in pages 13-15 of the Rudder[/i][/quote]


no just copy and pasted the Greek, and the parts of the document itself. I have never seen the point in typing quoted text when it can be cut and pasted. But I always put quotes around it when I do ( or at least i always intend to I am not perfet may occasionally make an error and forget). I am curious as to what ideas you think I took from somewhere else as such place might make interesting reading.

I really don't understand what many of these referances are about, meaning how they relate to the question at hand. But frankly I am to tired to read them all and try to figure it out right now.