Should Heretics Be Burned?

[dUSt]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1896107' date='Jun 19 2009, 05:16 PM']That heretics be burned is against the will of the Spirit
Error 33 of Exsurge Domine.
Yes it would be an error to say that it is agianst the will of the Spirit to burn heretics.
That [b][i]does not [/i][/b] translate to " all heretics should be burned."[/quote]
I thought you were a legend?

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='T-Bone _' post='1895873' date='Jun 19 2009, 08:05 AM']Nobody was killed for preaching the Gospel.[/quote]


Agreed

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='dUSt' post='1896110' date='Jun 19 2009, 04:20 PM']I thought you were a legend?[/quote]


I am.


But thank you.






( seriously.... I have been too busy to spend time here.... I can't just drop by at phatmass, it consumes me. I have 10 days until my schedule opens up a bit.... I will try to be by more then.

[Patrick]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1896111' date='Jun 19 2009, 03:21 PM']Agreed[/quote]

If you read my post carefully, you'll see that I was only trying to explain why Protestants might feel that way. Of course Catholics don't think so.

[Patrick]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1896107' date='Jun 19 2009, 03:16 PM']That heretics be burned is against the will of the Spirit

Error 33 of Exsurge Domine.

Yes it would be an error to say that it is agianst the will of the Spirit to burn heretics.

That [b][i]does not [/i][/b] translate to " all heretics should be burned."[/quote]

Did I say "all"?

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Patrick' post='1896113' date='Jun 19 2009, 04:26 PM']If you read my post carefully, you'll see that I was only trying to explain why Protestants might feel that way. Of course Catholics don't think so.[/quote]


I was agreeing to T-Bones response to "people were killed for preaching the Gospel.



And I read your post pretty carefully. I stand by mine. Why should the Church appologize for trying to defend Herself and the Faithful from the horrors of Protestantism? Even thinking about it makes me queezy.

The 4th Crusade is certianly not analgous, they were excommunicated for attacking fellow Christians when they should have ben defending them from the Moslems.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Patrick' post='1896115' date='Jun 19 2009, 04:30 PM']Did I say "all"?[/quote]


No. I didn't say you did... just clarifying the error. You asked a question about an listed errror in a Papal Bull, I answered it. However, in order to prevent scandal I thought it necessary to make sure to say what I did.

[Patrick]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1896117' date='Jun 19 2009, 03:31 PM']I was agreeing to T-Bones response to "people were killed for preaching the Gospel.

And I read your post pretty carefully. I stand by mine.[/quote]

Fair enough. I mistook clarification for reaction then.

[quote]Why should the Church appologize for trying to defend Herself and the Faithful from the horrors of Protestantism? Even thinking about it makes me queezy.[/quote]

You're arguing intention when I'm disputing means.

[quote]The 4th Crusade is certianly not analgous, they were excommunicated for attacking fellow Christians when they should have ben defending them from the Moslems.[/quote]

The only intended connection between the two is that they are both actions perceived as atrocities condoned by the Roman Catholic Church. From there, the analogy breaks down, because the 4th Crusade was in actuality not condoned.

[Patrick]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1896108' date='Jun 19 2009, 03:19 PM']The Protestants by the way did plenty of killing of Catholics, far mor Catholic lives were lost in persecusion by Protestants than the other way around.[/quote]

For which, I would hope, they would also apologize.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Patrick' post='1896124' date='Jun 19 2009, 05:44 PM']For which, I would hope, they would also apologize.[/quote]

Who would appologize? Which branch of Lutheranism? The Church of England? The English monarch? Whoever the closest lineal decendent of Elizabeth is?

Are they going to apologize for destroying Christendom and leading millions of souls away from the Church " Outside of whom there is no Salvation!"

The Catholic Church is expected to appologize because, being the True Church she endures. Protestantism is too fragmented and unstable to hold anyone organization responsable, that is why no one does, not to mention that the Elizabeth I is still held up as a great and wonderful leader who defended her country from those Savage Catholics. No even if there was someone who could apologize no one seems to think an apology is needed.

Edited June 19, 2009 by Don John of Austria

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Patrick' post='1896123' date='Jun 19 2009, 05:42 PM']You're arguing intention when I'm disputing means.[/quote]

But one need not ask forgiveness for doing what is right. Defending the Church was and is right. In an age before supermax prisons and superpowers, death was the only sure way to remove someone from society.

Of Course i would argue that Death is more humane than Life in a supermax prison. But I know I am a medieval man in a humanist world.

[Patrick]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1896127' date='Jun 19 2009, 03:55 PM']Who would appologize? Which branch of Lutheranism? The Church of England? The English monarch? Whoever the closest lineal decendent of Elizabeth is?

Are they going to appologize for destroying Christendom and leading millions of souls away fromthe Church " Outside of whom there is no Salvasion!"

The Catholic Church is expected to appologize because, being the True Church she endures. Protestantism is too fragmented and unstable to hold anyone organization responsable, that is why no one does, not to mention that the Elizabeth I is still held up as a great and wonderful leader who defended her country from those Savage Catholics. No even if there was someoen who could appologize no one seems to think an appology is needed.[/quote]

That's an interesting point, and one I hadn't considered: that the fracturing nature of Protestantism creates a vacuum of responsibility -- that there's not a good locus of responsibility for actions it has partaken of collectively.

Some of those Protestant groups have survived. And Protestants do meet collectively and have inter-denominational agreements sometimes. And I disagree that they wouldn't necessarily feel remorse or a willingness to apologize -- they do have convictions and standards and morals that past killings may be inconsistent with, and they may have grown.

And I seem to think an apology is needed. From both sides.

Regarding the Church of England, would you say that an apology by the Church of England or the Monarch of England would be a beginning, would you not? (Not arguing content of apology, but who, for the moment)

[Patrick]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1896129' date='Jun 19 2009, 03:59 PM']But one need not ask forgiveness for doing what is right. Defending the Church was and is right. In an age before supermax prisons and superpowers, death was the only sure way to remove someone from society.

Of Course i would argue that Death is more humane than Life in a supermax prison. But I know I am a medieval man in a humanist world.[/quote]

Inappropriate means is wrong. I refer to my earlier post that the Catholic Church should not have used physical means employed by the state, but rather spiritual means should be employed by the Church. If the person's crime is heresy [i]per se[/i], their execution should not be condoned by the Church! If the relevant crime they are being executed for is not indeed heresy, and is rather something that concerns the state and physical welfare of the people, then the bull should have mentioned it in terms of that crime, and not heresy.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Patrick' post='1896133' date='Jun 19 2009, 06:05 PM']That's an interesting point, and one I hadn't considered: that the fracturing nature of Protestantism creates a vacuum of responsibility -- that there's not a good locus of responsibility for actions it has partaken of collectively.

Some of those Protestant groups have survived. And Protestants do meet collectively and have inter-denominational agreements sometimes. And I disagree that they wouldn't necessarily feel remorse or a willingness to apologize -- they do have convictions and standards and morals that past killings may be inconsistent with, and they may have grown.

And I seem to think an apology is needed. From both sides.

Regarding the Church of England, would you say that an apology by the Church of England or the Monarch of England would be a beginning, would you not? (Not arguing content of apology, but who, for the moment)[/quote]

A beginning of what?


Really I do not see the point. I do not want a quite apathetic understanding with the Protestants. They are not Eastern Orthodoxy, they are not Sacramentally in communion with the Church. They were not founded by the Apostles. They are hostile to the Church by their nature. I would like them to actually admit that these events happened, and that Protestantism was not some innocent victim of the mean old Catholic Church. More than that I do not seek.

[Patrick]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1896136' date='Jun 19 2009, 04:14 PM']A beginning of what?[/quote]

Of healing hurts that still seem relevant. Beyond that, I don't know.

Thank you for sharing your viewpoint on the matter.