Should Heretics Be Burned?

[PeteWaldo]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1901286' date='Jun 25 2009, 12:35 PM']The Waldenses were not pursecuted in anyway for preaching the Gospel. That is a nice fiction, but fiction regardless.[/quote]

"The earliest Waldensians believed in poverty and austerity, promoting true poverty, public preaching and the personal study of the scriptures."

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1901286' date='Jun 25 2009, 12:35 PM']The Waldenses preached numerous heretical doctrines and resembled strongly the Cathari heresy. THey created a wholy ficticious history to justify their sects existance and testified that this was true. They elevated men to the office of bishop and performed Sacraments as if they were ordained when they were not. They allowed members to disolve thier marriage without fault or the consent of thier spouse. They declared the efficacy of a Sacrament was tied to the worthiness of the minister. They broke followers into caste, the Perfect and teh Friends, and declared that morality was differant for these differant people. (THis is quite differant than monastic life, there is nothing it is intrinsicly evil for a monk to do that is not intrinsicly evil for anyone to do.)

They specifically rejected purgatory, indulgences ( not just their sale mind you) and Prayers for the Dead.
They preached that the Catholic Church was the Community of Satan ( at least the Lombard ones did).[/quote]

While they obviously didn't start out there, it wouldn't have seemed a stretch for them to have eventually believed that, with entire villages being wiped out.

"On 24 April 1655, at 4 a.m., the signal was given for a general massacre, the horrors of which can be detailed only in small part.
The massacre was so brutal it aroused indignation throughout Europe."

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1901286' date='Jun 25 2009, 12:35 PM']There is a lot there that is worthy of persecution, but preachingthe gospel is not among them.[/quote]
They saw, as others, contradiction between the Gospel and Roman Catholic dogma.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='PeteWaldo' post='1901327' date='Jun 25 2009, 02:47 PM']"The earliest Waldensians believed in poverty and austerity, promoting true poverty, public preaching and the personal study of the scriptures."

[color="#2E8B57"] There was no persecution of the "earlist Waldensians" though thery believed much more than that.[/color]

While they obviously didn't start out there, it wouldn't have seemed a stretch for them to have eventually believed that, with entire villages being wiped out.

"On 24 April 1655, at 4 a.m., the signal was given for a general massacre, the horrors of which can be detailed only in small part.
The massacre was so brutal it aroused indignation throughout Europe."

[color="#2E8B57"]1655? that is hundreds of years after the Waldenses began, and frankly the Waldensian church of the 17th century and later bears little relation to the early Waldenses. The confession of Faith published in 1655 is simply calvinism in a new package. THey specifically rejected the Sacrament of Penence which was extremely important to early Waldensians. The Church you speak of is nothing more than a group that kept a name, Theologically, as well as materially, they are substantially differant groups.[/color]

They saw, as others, contradiction between the Gospel and Roman Catholic dogma.

[color="#2E8B57"]They may have interpreted the Gospel in such a way that they believed it to be in contradiction to the Church founded by Christ. They may have been persecuted by various groups for things that they did and taught. But preachingthe Gospel was not among those things.[/color][/quote]

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='PeteWaldo' post='1901315' date='Jun 25 2009, 02:31 PM']Do you know why Jesus spoke in parables?

[color="#2E8B57"]Yup... .do you?[/color][/quote]

[Don John of Austria]

Just wanted to make sure I recalled correctly. You are talking about actions of the Duke of Savoy who had been told that the Waldensians were resisting his authority. I fail to see how that has any relation to the issue of punishment of heritics.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='PeteWaldo' post='1901315' date='Jun 25 2009, 02:31 PM']Quite a stunning parallel to Islam.
[url="http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/apostasy.htm"]http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/apostasy.htm[/url][/quote]


Not really parrallel at all. Apostates are not at issue here. As I said before, peoples private views were never punished. Many many apostates( and out and out traitors) were captured in the Wars with Islam. They were not ussually killed, and when they were it had nothing to do with apostacy. Heritics were punished for teaching falsehoods to others. They were almost always given another chance and only if agian caught, after they had sworn to God that they would not would they be punished.

Islam specifically punishes you for your privatly held beliefs. These are not the same.

[PeteWaldo]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1901346' date='Jun 25 2009, 02:19 PM']Not really parrallel at all. Apostates are not at issue here. As I said before, peoples private views were never punished. Many many apostates( and out and out traitors) were captured in the Wars with Islam. They were not ussually killed, and when they were it had nothing to do with apostacy. Heritics were punished for teaching falsehoods to others. They were almost always given another chance and only if agian caught, after they had sworn to God that they would not would they be punished.[/quote]

In Islam, the classic period of incarceration pending "repentance" to avoid execution, is 3 days.

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1901346' date='Jun 25 2009, 02:19 PM']Islam specifically punishes you for your privatly held beliefs. These are not the same.[/quote]

[PeteWaldo]

"Do you know why Jesus spoke in parables?

Yup... .do you?"

Yes. So then how do you reconcile your understanding of the parable of Matthew 22:1–14 justifying the Roman Catholic murder of "heretics", against these verses of the very same chapter that describe the very heart of Christianity:

Matt 22:37 [color="#000080"]Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second [is] like unto it, [b]Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.[/b] 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.[/color]

How does your understanding of that parable reconcile with this:

Mat 5:44 [color="#000080"]But I say unto you, [b]Love your enemies[/b], bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; [/color]

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='PeteWaldo' post='1901373' date='Jun 25 2009, 04:17 PM']"Do you know why Jesus spoke in parables?

Yup... .do you?"

Yes. So then how do you reconcile your understanding of the parable of Matthew 22:1–14 justifying the Roman Catholic murder of "heretics", against these verses of the very same chapter that describe the very heart of Christianity:

Matt 22:37 [color="#000080"]Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second [is] like unto it, [b]Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.[/b] 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.[/color]

How does your understanding of that parable reconcile with this:

Mat 5:44 [color="#000080"]But I say unto you, [b]Love your enemies[/b], bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; [/color][/quote]


I Have no need to justify Roman Catholic Murder of Heretics becuase there is no discussion of Murder going on here.

Murder is the intentional killing of the innocent and the helpless. Heretics are not innoccent and they were rarely helpless.

Simply put loving your enemy does not preclude killing them. Just as Loving my son does not preclude my spanking him. Punishment is not unloving. More to the point, loving Bob does not mean I allow Bob to convince Cindy, and Simon, and John, and Mary , and Luis, etc, etc to believe things that will send them to Hell. I owe all my brethren love and protection, not just those who are in error, butthose who are not and yet are targeted by those that are.


If I was a heretic leading people to Hell, was explained the error of my ways, and given a chance to repent, then I broke my oath to God and continued, I would hope sopmeone would have the common decency to kill me.

I see no contradiction at all.
In fact, the practice was almost exactly that of the King in the Parable. Invite one to come to the Church, send out messangers, to the feast, [i]heretics were treated exactly as this, invited to renounce their heresy and accept correction[/i]. When they do not come invite them again and again, again heretics had to refuse multiple warnigns before they were tried, and then if found guilty ( which most wre not by the way) they were given a chance to recant and go about their merry way.. If they abuse your messangers, i.e.[i] they break their oath and continue to teach damnable heresy[/i], invite others to the party and send out the army to eliminate them.


Of course the Church rarely sent out the Army, with the exception of Crusades such was virtually always done by the secular authority.

[PeteWaldo]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1901408' date='Jun 25 2009, 03:53 PM']I Have no need to justify Roman Catholic Murder of Heretics becuase there is no discussion of Murder going on here.

Murder is the intentional killing of the innocent and the helpless. Heretics are not innoccent and they were rarely helpless.[/quote]
That is somewhat similar to the view that Islam takes. No non-Muslim is innocent.
[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1901408' date='Jun 25 2009, 03:53 PM']Simply put loving your enemy does not preclude killing them.[/quote]
Well put!
[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1901408' date='Jun 25 2009, 03:53 PM']Just as Loving my son does not preclude my spanking him.[/quote]

"Just as..." spanking your son?
Through a Roman Catholic view, when you murder a heretic, aren't you condemning him to hell for eternity by killing him while he is in a state, that you yourself believe, to be outside the grace of God?

Surely you're not suggesting that is "just as" spanking your son?

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1901408' date='Jun 25 2009, 03:53 PM']Punishment is not unloving. More to the point, loving Bob does not mean I allow Bob to convince Cindy, and Simon, and John, and Mary , and Luis, etc, etc to believe things that will send them to Hell.[/quote]

So because of what you believe, for example your misunderstanding of the parable discussed here, you send Bob to, what you believe to be perdition, for an eternity?

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1901408' date='Jun 25 2009, 03:53 PM']I owe all my brethren love and protection, not just those who are in error,[/quote]
Your love for those in error is manifest by killing them?
[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1901408' date='Jun 25 2009, 03:53 PM']butthose who are not and yet are targeted by those that are.


If I was a heretic leading people to Hell, was explained the error of my ways,[/quote]
Jhn 8:7 [color="#000080"]So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, [b]He that is without sin among you,[/b] let him first cast a stone at her. [/color]
[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1901408' date='Jun 25 2009, 03:53 PM']and given a chance to repent, then I broke my oath to God and continued, I would hope sopmeone would have the common decency to kill me.[/quote]
And send you to perdition for ever for your error?
[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1901408' date='Jun 25 2009, 03:53 PM']I see no contradiction at all.[/quote]
Indeed you don't.
[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1901408' date='Jun 25 2009, 03:53 PM']In fact, the practice was almost exactly that of the King in the Parable. Invite one to come to the Church, send out messangers, to the feast, [i]heretics were treated exactly as this, invited to renounce their heresy and accept correction[/i]. When they do not come invite them again and again, again heretics had to refuse multiple warnigns before they were tried, and then if found guilty ( which most wre not by the way) they were given a chance to recant and go about their merry way.. If they abuse your messangers, i.e.[i] they break their oath and continue to teach damnable heresy[/i], invite others to the party and send out the army to eliminate them.[/quote]

Just as in Islam. Did you ever wonder if it's because of the same reason that Muslims that come to Christ are killed?
That men resort to taking matters into their own hands physically, when they find themselves helplessly disarmed against the Sword of the Spirit?

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1901408' date='Jun 25 2009, 03:53 PM']Of course the Church rarely sent out the Army, with the exception of Crusades such was virtually always done by the secular authority.[/quote]

Come on my friend. We are talking about several centuries of this stuff. Or are you now going to join those that try and excuse this away as the work of some "secular authority" as if unguided by the Roman Catholic Church?

Edited June 25, 2009 by PeteWaldo

[Resurrexi]

I am wondering something, PeteWaldo. Are you a neo-Waldensian?

Edited June 25, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='PeteWaldo' post='1901440' date='Jun 25 2009, 05:50 PM']That is somewhat similar to the view that Islam takes. No non-Muslim is innocent.
[color="#2E8B57"] I know Islam preety well , and I assure you I am no friend to it. But I think you misunderstand islam quite a bit. For starters, Islam is just Chirstian Heresy (Arianism with a twist)) that got out of hand. Muslims do not really believe in innocence the way Chirstians do, so it is not really a good comparison[/color]
Well put!


"Just as..." spanking your son?
Through a Roman Catholic view, when [color="#2E8B57"]one executes [/color]a heretic[color="#2E8B57"], (you seem to have a problem with terminology so I thought I would correct it for you)[/color] aren't you condemning him to hell for eternity by killing him while he is in a state, that you yourself believe, to be outside the grace of God?
[color="#2E8B57"] Not necessarly, I have no idea of the individual fates of anyone. I know that Heresy leads one to Hell, just as raping children leads one to Hell, I do not know the individual fate of individual heritics anymore than I know the Fate of individual child- rapist. The Father determines your fate, not me. Many Heretics recanted again and recieved the Sacrements, some might of made a perfect act o Contrition, some may have been mentally unbalanced and not culpable. I make no claim as to who does and does not go to perdition. I think if you die as a Formal Heretic you will go to Hell, I do not know who that does or does not apply to. [/color]

Surely you're not suggesting that is "just as" spanking your son?
[color="#2E8B57"]Punishment for offenses is just. Spanking my son has both punitive and teaching applications. Execution of a Heretic probably has little teaching effect to him, though it might indeed have such an effect on others.[/color]

So because of what you believe, for example your misunderstanding of the parable discussed here, you send Bob to, what you believe to be perdition, for an eternity?
[color="#2E8B57"]Except I do not misunderstand the Parable above. I or any human send no one to Hell. That is the Father's perogative. I might indeed send him to his particular Judgement. [/color]

Your love for those in error is manifest by killing them?
[color="#2E8B57"]My love for the innoocent may be manifested in killing the guilty particularly if the Guilty insist on continuing to Harm the innocent. I do not concider violent action even lethal action , to b\e inherintly unloving, perhpaps the fear of death will cause a act of perfect contrition? Regardless, the secular authority is obliged to protect people. In the past the Secular authority realized that the souls protection was part of that duty, I see little differance between a heretic who activly preaches his heresy and a murderer, accept that a murderer only seeks to destroy the body a heretic seeks to destroy the soul. [/color]

Jhn 8:7 [color="#000080"]So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, [b]He that is without sin among you,[/b] let him first cast a stone at her. [/color]

And send you to perdition for ever for your error?

[color="#2E8B57"]Answered this already, twice![/color]

Indeed you don't.

Just as in Islam. Did you ever wonder if it's because of the same reason that Muslims that come to Christ are killed?
That men resort to taking matters into their own hands physically, when they find themselves helplessly disarmed against the Sword of the Spirit?
[color="#008000"]So you do not believe that men should ever take things into there hand physically? Are you a universal pacifist? If someone was raping your mother, wife, daughter, sister, in front of you would you stand there and let them so it? If not then why, do you not trust that the Spirit could change these mens minds, convert them, make them understand the sin that they commit? You think Heresy is some how differant, the problem is, it is not.

If you are a universal pacifist, then that is a differant issue. I respect that position, but I do nto agree it is the only Christian one. [/color]

Come on my friend. We are talking about several centuries of this stuff. Or are you now going to join those that try and excuse this away as the work of some "secular authority" as if unguided by the Roman Catholic Church?

[color="#2E8B57"]I need excuse nothing, The Church tried people in eccesiastical court and if found guilty they turned them over to secular authority for punishment. I don''t think anything was done wrong. My only complaint about the burning of Heretics is they didn't get Luther, Calvin and Zwingli. The Germanic and French Inquisitors were obviously slackers.[/[/color]quote]

Edited June 25, 2009 by Don John of Austria

[Patrick]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1901460' date='Jun 25 2009, 04:09 PM']I am wondering something, PeteWaldo, Are you a neo-Waldensian?[/quote]

Say yes say yes! They want to show their "love" for you.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Patrick' post='1901481' date='Jun 25 2009, 06:33 PM']Say yes say yes! They want to show their "love" for you. [/quote]


Smart Aleck

[Patrick]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1901486' date='Jun 25 2009, 04:36 PM']Smart Aleck[/quote]

Would you expect him to answer "yes" given the context?

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Patrick' post='1901497' date='Jun 25 2009, 06:43 PM']Would you expect him to answer "yes" given the context?[/quote]


Yes actually. Even if he isn't. It would stir the pot more and he seems to like that.