Another Reason We Should Convert The Orthodox

[Nihil Obstat]

Oooooh snap. It's on now.

[Guest Hiprocksoul]

When I read the Bible I never got the message that Orthodoxy or Roman Catholic priests were necessary for my salvation. From what I've read, Jesus is the key and we all are capable of asking forgiveness for our own sins.

If My people, who are called by My name, shall humble themselves, pray, seek, crave, and require of necessity My face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven, forgive their sin, and heal their land. 2 Chronicles 7: 14

I've just never read any CLEAR scripture without indoctrinated opinion that gives the Pope or Catholic priests the right to forgive/or ask forgiveness for someones sin. I've never agreed with Catholic doctrine, but I've always said that Catholics are my brothers in Christ, but after reading these posts, I feel like Catholics(on here) think I'm going to hell for not being in "The Church".

ps: pick up Move Merchants, it's fire!!!

[Gregorius]

[quote name='OraProMe' post='1895682' date='Jun 19 2009, 12:30 AM']Canon 966 - §1. [b]For the valid absolution of sins it is required that,
besides the power received through sacred ordination,[/b] the minister
possess the[b] faculty [/b]to exercise that power over the faithful to whom
he imparts absolution.
§2. A priest can be given this faculty either by the law itself or by a
concession granted by [b]competent authority[/b] in accord with the norm
of canon 969.
Canon 969 - §1. [b]The local ordinary alone is competent to confer upon
any presbyters whatsoever the faculty to hear the confession of any
of the faithful[/b]; however, presbyters who are members of religious
institutes should not use such[/quote]
Maybe I'm just misunderstanding the canon, but it seems that Socrates' quote below from Canon 844:
[quote name='QUOTE']. . . Christ's faithful for whom it is physically or morally impossible to approach a catholic minister, may lawfully receive the sacraments of penance, the Eucharist and anointing of the sick from non-catholic ministers in whose Churches these sacraments are valid.[/quote]
...Certainly gives the Orthodox Church permission to give the sacrament to a Catholic in a case of emergency. As this is canon law, I don't see why a local bishop [u]wouldn't[/u] give permission.
But rereading your question, It seems you are more concerned about the validity of their sacrament of penance in the first place. Only a valid authority can grant a priest the faculty to hear confession. The Orthodox clergy are valid priests and bishops. They have the authority to grant the necessary faculty. Also keep in mind that the SSPX as of now still do not exercise a legitimate ministry in the church. Despite their claims, they [b][u]DO NOT[/u][/b] answer to the local ordinary, or the Pope, or the Ecclesia Dei commission, but only to their own bishops, which do not exercise a legitimate ministry and thus are not allowed to exercise the authority given at ordination.

[Gregorius]

[quote name='Hiprocksoul' post='1895742' date='Jun 19 2009, 12:59 AM']When I read the Bible I never got the message that Orthodoxy or Roman Catholic priests were necessary for my salvation. From what I've read, Jesus is the key and we all are capable of asking forgiveness for our own sins.

If My people, who are called by My name, shall humble themselves, pray, seek, crave, and require of necessity My face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven, forgive their sin, and heal their land. 2 Chronicles 7: 14

I've just never read any CLEAR scripture without indoctrinated opinion that gives the Pope or Catholic priests the right to forgive/or ask forgiveness for someones sin. I've never agreed with Catholic doctrine, but I've always said that Catholics are my brothers in Christ, but after reading these posts, I feel like Catholics(on here) think I'm going to hell for not being in "The Church".[/quote]
Ummm...yeah. Salvation comes from the Church, because Christ is in the Church. The Bible, God's word, is not enough to sustain you; you, and me, and everyone needs the presence of Christ, which is Fully present in the Church.
Church=communion of saints
communion of saints=Church Triumphant(Heaven)+Church Suffering(purgatory)+Church Militant(Church on Earth)
Church Militant=Visible Church(Catholic Church and the 23 sister churches)+Invisible Church(Men of goodwill genuinely seeking truth and thus being led either to the church or the closest thing to it, not that unusual protestant notion of somehow maybe bible sorta connected thing)
The point is we Catholics believe that no matter what religion you profess, if any of us is saved, it is through Christ through His Church. We are not trying to be mean and say you're going to hell, no we are not saying that. We are simply stating the truth, the truth given to us by Christ and Passed down by the Church He established led by Peter and his Successors. Up until circa 1053 the Orthodox and the Roman Catholics were one. To this day we share much in common. I'm sure all of us here wish to be united. But there are many disputes, like this one, that need to be sorted out before such a thing can happen. This is serious stuff. But we aren't trying to be mean!

[Gregorius]

As for biblical references regarding the authority of Peter and the Church, see:
[url="http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0307sbs.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0307sbs.asp[/url]
[url="http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/papacy.htm"]http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/papacy.htm[/url]
For pages on the Church's history in the role of salvation:
[url="http://www.phatmass.com/directory/index.php/cat/335"]http://www.phatmass.com/directory/index.php/cat/335[/url]
And for more details, see the defense dictionary for more details, because it's late where I am and I'm tired of posting long comments.

[Gregorius]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1895738' date='Jun 19 2009, 12:58 AM']Oooooh snap. It's on now.[/quote]
No. Not trying to start anything. Stay on topic.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Gregorius' post='1895761' date='Jun 19 2009, 01:20 AM']keep in mind that the SSPX as of now still do not exercise a legitimate ministry in the church. Despite their claims, they [b][u]DO NOT[/u][/b] answer to the local ordinary, or the Pope, or the Ecclesia Dei commission, but only to their own bishops, which do not exercise a legitimate ministry and thus are not allowed to exercise the authority given at ordination.[/quote]

If you haven't noticed, the Eastern Orthodox Bishops don't submit to the Pope either.

That said, according to the Code:

"Whenever necessity requires or a genuine spiritual advantage commends it, and provided the danger of error or indifferentism is avoided, Christ's faithful for whom it is physically or morally impossible to approach a Catholic minister, may lawfully receive the sacraments of Penance, the Eucharist and Anointing of the Sick from non-Catholic ministers in whose Churches these sacraments are valid." (CIC, can. Can. 844 § 2)

Edited June 19, 2009 by Resurrexi

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1895665' date='Jun 19 2009, 01:16 AM']Sorry His Royal Highness is not entertained.[/quote]

It's not entertainment I'm looking for... perhaps something of spiritual value... for a change. There's actually a thread on silence and solitude that would be good if people here were interested in spirituality. Of course, since we seem more interested in splitting hairs over endless theological arguments that begin on the silliest premises (like this thread), we end up with five pages debating something that is an established fact while all of four posts linger on threads that are actually worthwhile and useful in our sanctification.

Edited June 19, 2009 by LouisvilleFan

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1895780' date='Jun 19 2009, 01:12 AM']If you haven't noticed, the Eastern Orthodox Bishops don't submit to the Pope either.

That said, according to the Code:

"Whenever necessity requires or a genuine spiritual advantage commends it, and provided the danger of error or indifferentism is avoided, Christ's faithful for whom it is physically or morally impossible to approach a Catholic minister, may lawfully receive the sacraments of Penance, the Eucharist and Anointing of the Sick from non-Catholic ministers in whose Churches these sacraments are valid." (CIC, can. Can. 844 § 2)[/quote]

Exactly. The Church is hierarchial and all authority flows down from Peter, to the bishops and then to the priests who are granted faculties.

The canon law I quoted above specifically says that for a confession to be VALID not just licit the priest must have faculties. Faculties, that the same code says, can only be granted by a local ordinary.

If you don't have a mandate from the pope to teach and sanctify (like both the Orthodox and SSPX) then you don't have jurisdiction, and if you don't have jurisdiction you don't have faculties.

Now in cases of extreme emergency "ecclesia supplet". The Church supplies.
Say if I was hit by a bus outside an Orthodox or SSPX Church, then the priest inside could validly hear my confession. This is very different to if I went in and waited at the confessional.

Being validly ordained isn't enough for the absolution of sins, the canons I quoted a few posts above state this explicitly.

[OraProMe]

Again, Socrates and anyone else.

Canon 966 - §1. For the [b]valid[/b] (not just licit) absolution of sins it is required that,
[b]besides[/b] the power received through sacred ordination, the minister
possess the faculty to exercise that power over the faithful to whom
he imparts absolution.

Edited June 19, 2009 by OraProMe

[LouisvilleFan]

Dude, Orthodox priests receive their faculties from their own bishops.

Why are you so worried about this anyway?

[Resurrexi]

The real question is whence do the Eastern Orthodox bishops receive their faculties.

I know that under the 1917 Code, absolution by Eastern Orthodox priests was invalid, but for some reason it can be valid under the new codes.

Edited June 19, 2009 by Resurrexi

[OraProMe]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1895893' date='Jun 19 2009, 08:32 AM']Dude, Orthodox priests receive their faculties from their own bishops.

Why are you so worried about this anyway?[/quote]

Eastern Orthodox bishops aren't in communion with the pope and thus don't have any jurisdiction or authority to grant faculties. There aren't two systems of authority, one for the East and one for the West. There is only Peter.

I'm not particularly, it was just a thought that occured to me while reading over another thread.

[Gregorius]

[quote name='OraProMe' post='1895811' date='Jun 19 2009, 02:21 AM']Exactly. The Church is hierarchial and all authority flows down from Peter, to the bishops and then to the priests who are granted faculties.

The canon law I quoted above specifically says that for a confession to be VALID not just licit the priest must have faculties. Faculties, that the same code says, can only be granted by a local ordinary.

If you don't have a mandate from the pope to teach and sanctify (like both the Orthodox and SSPX) then you don't have jurisdiction, and if you don't have jurisdiction you don't have faculties.

Now in cases of extreme emergency "ecclesia supplet". The Church supplies.
Say if I was hit by a bus outside an Orthodox or SSPX Church, then the priest inside could validly hear my confession. This is very different to if I went in and waited at the confessional.

Being validly ordained isn't enough for the absolution of sins, the canons I quoted a few posts above state this explicitly.[/quote]
So wait, I'm lost. If the faculty for valid confession comes from the Ordinary, why do you need a mandate from the Pope if the ordinary has proper authority?
As to my understanding, the patriarchs have full authority over their sees. However if there is a conflict between them and the Pope, the Pope wins out. But there seems to be no doctrinal dispute here. Can you clarify?

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Gregorius' post='1895919' date='Jun 19 2009, 10:15 AM']So wait, I'm lost. If the faculty for valid confession comes from the Ordinary, why do you need a mandate from the Pope if the ordinary has proper authority?[/quote]

Because one becomes an ordinary by receiving an appointment from the Pope. An official mandate which gives you the power to teach and sanctify, without which the bishop has sacramental power but no authority to rule over the faithful.

[i]As to my understanding, the patriarchs have full authority over their sees. However if there is a conflict between them and the Pope, the Pope wins out. But there seems to be no doctrinal dispute here. Can you clarify?[/i]
All local Churches, whether headed by a bishop or patriarch, are subject to the Roman Pontiff. But that's another discussion that we shouldn't get into here......

It's not about "doctrinal dispute" it's the about the fact that confession is both judicial and sacramental. Which is why being a validly ordained priest doesn't suffice for the validity of the sacrament.