Apotheoun Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1891815' date='Jun 15 2009, 04:17 PM']It is your fault that your refuse to accept the authoritative interpretation of said Council.[/quote] So you are saying that I must accept a statement that is illogical because it is issued by an authority? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 A thing that is present by definition subsists where it is present Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintwannabe 777 Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1891622' date='Jun 15 2009, 04:26 PM']In his bull [i]Unam Sanctam[/i], Pope Boniface VIII taught: "Unam sanctam Ecelesiam catholicam et ipsam apostolicam urgente fide credere cogimur et tenere, nosque hanc firmiter credimus et simpliciter confitemur, extra quam nec salus est nec remissio peccatorum." (Denzinger-Schonmetzer 870) "Urged by faith, we are obliged to believe and to maintain that the Church is one, holy, catholic, and also apostolic. We believe in her firmly and we confess with simplicity that outside of her there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins." (Denzinger 468)[/quote] So do you disregard natural law??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 [quote name='saintwannabe 777' post='1891839' date='Jun 15 2009, 06:30 PM']So do you disregard natural law???[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintwannabe 777 Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1891840' date='Jun 15 2009, 06:30 PM'][/quote] You said there is no salvation outside of the church nor is there remission of sins, but why are you limiting Jesus Christ to his sacraments. I have been taught that we as Catholics have the full truth, but that the sacrifice of Jesus Christ is so great that it can save others who do not have the assurance of the Church and Her sacraments. Essentially, I find it odd that you stick to that Extra Ecclesia Nulla Sallus talk when the Church doesn't say that. Now, what the Church teaches is that it is the surest way to Salvation and that Jesus Christ is the only Way, Truth, and Lofe, but it doesn't say that there is no hope of salvation for those outside the Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 [quote name='saintwannabe 777' post='1891851' date='Jun 15 2009, 06:38 PM']Essentially, I find it odd that you stick to that Extra Ecclesia Nulla Sallus talk when the Church doesn't say that.[/quote] That quote was from a bull of Pope Boniface VIII. It sounds like the teaching of the Magisterium of the Church to me. [quote name='saintwannabe 777' post='1891851' date='Jun 15 2009, 06:38 PM']Now, what the Church teaches is that it is the surest way to Salvation and that Jesus Christ is the only Way, Truth, and Lofe, but it doesn't say that there is no hope of salvation for those outside the Church.[/quote] I think Bishop Giuseppe Sarto, who would later become Pope St. Pius X, has a great explanation of the doctrine of [i]extra Ecclesiam nulla salus[/i]: "Q: But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved? A: If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God's will as best he can such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OraProMe Posted June 16, 2009 Author Share Posted June 16, 2009 Saying that non-Catholics can be saved is a bit iffy. I think Pius XII taugh that good people who follow the natural law are united by an implicit or explicit baptism of desire to the soul of the Church. They are "potential" Catholics I suppose. Ofcourse, only God knows who those people are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1891638' date='Jun 15 2009, 04:46 PM']I was mainly trying to emphasize the last part of the quote "outside of her there is neither salvation [b]nor the remission of sins[/b]."[/quote] This quote would, of course, include the invisible Church, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Eastern Orthodox churches not in union with the Holy Pontiff are schismatic. "Those who belong to God and Jesus Christ ally themselves with the bishop. Brethren, be not deceived; whosoever follows a schismatic shall not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven" — The Epistle of Ignatius to the Philadelphians 3.2-3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 The Orthodox churches have apostolic succession, and their holy orders and sacraments, including penance, are valid, as the Church teaches. They are in schism, but the schism does not invalidate the sacraments. We should try to bring the Orthodox back from their schism, but for reasons unrelated to the validity of their sacraments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 (edited) [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' post='1892065' date='Jun 15 2009, 10:19 PM']This quote would, of course, include the invisible Church, no?[/quote] "Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience." (Second Vatican Ecumenical Council, [i]Lumen Gentium[/i], 16) I would assume that, if such a person had a sinful past and were sorry for his sins out of perfect contrition, he could be forgiven of those sins. Edited June 16, 2009 by Resurrexi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 [quote name='Socrates' post='1892096' date='Jun 15 2009, 08:35 PM']The Orthodox churches have apostolic succession, and their holy orders and sacraments, including penance, are valid, as the Church teaches. They are in schism, but the schism does not invalidate the sacraments. We should try to bring the Orthodox back from their schism, but for reasons unrelated to the validity of their sacraments.[/quote] Orthodox are in schism from Catholics? That's an entertaining notion. I am aware that's how Catholics see it. See [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East-West_Schism#Prospects_for_reconciliation"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East-West_Sch..._reconciliation[/url] for a beginning description of how Orthodox see it. For us to accept Roman innovations would be corrupting ourselves. The elder brother left the household. We stayed there. We're waiting for the elder brother to come back home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 The fair way to word it, btw, is to acknowledge the separation while not addressing the question of who left whom or who is at fault. And yes, I know this is a Catholic forum after all, but you're just not going to get very far with us with that attitude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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