Another Reason We Should Convert The Orthodox

[Patrick]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1891638' date='Jun 15 2009, 02:46 PM']I was mainly trying to emphasize the last part of the quote "outside of her there is neither salvation [b]nor the remission of sins[/b]."[/quote]

Assuming that the quote is applicable to this discussion, this of course begs the question of "Who is the Church?" Orthodox would say it's the Orthodox. Catholics would say it's the Catholics, or both, depending on who you talk to.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Patrick' post='1891664' date='Jun 15 2009, 05:01 PM']Assuming that the quote is applicable to this discussion, this of course begs the question of "Who is the Church?" Orthodox would say it's the Orthodox. Catholics would say it's the Catholics, or both, depending on who you talk to.[/quote]

According to Catholic doctrine, the Church of Christ subsists in the Catholic Church alone.

[Gregorius]

So does the Church teach that the Orthodoxy is part of the church, albeit a separated church? I was given the impression that the Orthodoxy lacks nothing but visible unity according to the Church, and that the Church says that it not only recognizes all seven sacraments but they are also all valid. So this leads to my first question above. Somebody please fill me in.

[Vasilius Konstantinos]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1891672' date='Jun 15 2009, 05:06 PM']According to Catholic doctrine, the Church of Christ subsists in the Catholic Church alone.[/quote]

Unless of course you read what Vatican II states otherwise.

Are you involved with the Society of Pope Pius V or X?

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Gregorius' post='1891673' date='Jun 15 2009, 05:06 PM']So does the Church teach that the Orthodoxy is part of the church, albeit a separated church? I was given the impression that the Orthodoxy lacks nothing but visible unity according to the Church, and that the Church says that it not only recognizes all seven sacraments but they are also all valid. So this leads to my first question above. Somebody please fill me in.[/quote]

'Christ “established here on earth” only one Church and instituted it as a “visible and spiritual community”, that from its beginning and throughout the centuries has always existed and will always exist, and in which alone are found all the elements that Christ himself instituted. “This one Church of Christ, which we confess in the Creed as one, holy, catholic and apostolic […]. This Church, constituted and organised in this world as a society, subsists in the Catholic Church, governed by the successor of Peter and the Bishops in communion with him”.

In number 8 of the Dogmatic Constitution Lumen gentium ‘subsistence’ means this perduring, historical continuity and the permanence of all the elements instituted by Christ in the Catholic Church, in which the Church of Christ is concretely found on this earth.

It is possible, according to Catholic doctrine, to affirm correctly that the Church of Christ is present and operative in the churches and ecclesial Communities not yet fully in communion with the Catholic Church, on account of the elements of sanctification and truth that are present in them. Nevertheless, the word “subsists” can only be attributed to the Catholic Church alone precisely because it refers to the mark of unity that we profess in the symbols of the faith (I believe... in the “one” Church); and this “one” Church subsists in the Catholic Church.' (Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, [i]Responses to Some Questions Regarding Certain Aspects of the Doctrine on the Church[/i], Q. 2)

Edited June 15, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Vasilius Konstantinos' post='1891679' date='Jun 15 2009, 05:10 PM']Unless of course you read what Vatican II states otherwise.

Are you involved with the Society of Pope Pius V or X?[/quote]



Obviously you didn't get the memo in July 2007:

[url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070629_responsa-quaestiones_en.html"]http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congrega...stiones_en.html[/url]

[Vasilius Konstantinos]

I did.

It says we are not in full communion but are apparently "Sister Church" who are in dialogue.

You never answered my question if you were affiliated with the Society of Saint Pope Pius V or X?

[Resurrexi]

You stated that Vatican II does not state that the Church of Christ subsists in the Catholic Church alone. However, according to the authoritative interpretation of Lumen Gentium made by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, "The word 'subsists' can only be attributed to the Catholic Church."

As to your question, no, I am not affiliated with the SSPX or with the SSPV.

[Apotheoun]

According to the Roman Church's [i]Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith[/i] the Eastern Orthodox Churches are true particular Churches, because ". . . in every valid celebration of the Eucharist the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church becomes truly present" (Communionis Notio, no. 17). That said, where a being is present it by definition subsists, and where it subsists it follows logically that it is present; ergo, the Eastern Orthodox Churches are -- like the Roman Church -- truly the one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church whenever they celebrate the Eucharistic liturgy.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Apotheoun

[picchick]

Every body has two lungs.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1891781' date='Jun 15 2009, 06:03 PM']According to the Roman Church's [i]Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith[/i] the Eastern Orthodox Churches are true particular Churches, because ". . . in every valid celebration of the Eucharist the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church becomes truly present" (Communionis Notio, no. 17). That said, where a being is present it by definition subsists, and where it subsists it follows logically that it is present; ergo, the Eastern Orthodox Churches are -- like the Roman Church -- truly the one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church whenever they celebrate the Eucharistic liturgy.[/quote]

As I have already noted, it is incorrect to say that the Church of Christ subsists in any other Church than the Catholic Church.

'Nevertheless, the word “subsists” can only be attributed to the Catholic Church alone precisely because it refers to the mark of unity that we profess in the symbols of the faith (I believe... in the “one” Church); and this “one” Church subsists in the Catholic Church.'

'Verbum "subsistit" soli Ecclesiae catholicae ut singulare tantum attribuitur, quia refertur nempe ad notam unitatis in symbolis confessam (Credo…unam Ecclesiam); quae Ecclesia una subsistit in Ecclesia catholica.'

Edited June 15, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1891789' date='Jun 15 2009, 04:07 PM']As I have already noted, it is incorrect to say that the Church of Christ subsists in any other Church than the Catholic Church.

'Nevertheless, the word “subsists” can only be attributed to the Catholic Church alone precisely because it refers to the mark of unity that we profess in the symbols of the faith (I believe... in the “one” Church); and this “one” Church subsists in the Catholic Church.'[/quote]
Thank you for expressing your opinion. But the word subsist simply means to exist, and where something is present it -- by its very nature -- subsists.

[Resurrexi]

It's too bad that you disagree with the CDF, which defines subsistence in [i]Lumen Gentium[/i] 8 as "perduring, historical continuity and the permanence of all the elements instituted by Christ."

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1891796' date='Jun 15 2009, 04:10 PM']It's too bad that you disagree with the CDF, which defines subsistence in [i]Lumen Gentium[/i] 8 as "perduring, historical continuity and the permanence of all the elements instituted by Christ."[/quote]
It is not my fault that the local council held by your Church in the 1960s chose to use the word [i][b]subsist[/b][/i] instead of the word [i][b]is[/b][/i] when talking about itself, and then went on to talk about how the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church is made present in the Eastern Orthodox Churches. As I said in my earlier post, where a thing is present it by definition subsists, and where it subsists it is present.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1891807' date='Jun 15 2009, 06:14 PM']It is not my fault that the local council held by your Church in the 1960s chose to use the word [i][b]subsist[/b][/i] instead of the word [i][b]is[/b][/i] when talking about itself, and then went on to talk about how the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church is made present in the Eastern Orthodox Churches. As I said in my earlier post, where a thing is present it by definition subsists, and where it subsists it is present.[/quote]

It is your fault that your refuse to accept the authoritative interpretation of said Council.