Era Might Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1891852' date='Jun 15 2009, 05:38 PM']If you are a Pelagian you would say that his efforts to know God according to his created intellect would save him, but if you are a Catholic you would say that salvation is not about rationalizing a belief about a supreme being, but is about the unmerited gift of grace, which only God can give.[/quote] So is it accurate to say that you believe that the man on the island can learn something about God, but that anything he learns is a supernatural revelation given by grace, and not learned by reason? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 [quote name='Era Might' post='1891850' date='Jun 15 2009, 04:37 PM']Suppose a man were born and raised on an island, away from any human contact. Do you believe that by reason he can learn anything about God (e.g., that there is a God)?[/quote] Let me clarify something, because some Latin Catholics are reading my comments about the inability of man to know anything about the divine essence as meaning that man can know nothing at all about God, which I have never said. What is knowable about God are His energies, not His essence, i.e., what the Fathers called "the things around" God which manifest His presence, and which allow man to participate in His being. To put it another way, God is more than essence, He is also energy and a triad of divine persons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 [quote name='Era Might' post='1891855' date='Jun 15 2009, 04:41 PM']So is it accurate to say that you believe that the man on the island can learn something about God, but that anything he learns is a supernatural revelation given by grace, and not learned by reason?[/quote] No, what he learns by created reason is not equatable with supernatural revelation. In fact, what he can learn about God through created reason would be an imperfect reflection of His energies, which sustain creation, but that knowledge taken alone is not salvific, because salvation is by grace alone, and not by the acts of created human intellection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1891859' date='Jun 15 2009, 06:46 PM']No, what he learns by created reason is not equatable with supernatural revelation. In fact, what he can learn about God through created reason would be an imperfect reflection of His energies, which sustain creation, but that knowledge taken alone is not salvific, because salvation is by grace alone, and not by the acts of created human intellection.[/quote] I guess what I'm asking is, do you believe that there is any role for reason? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 [quote name='Era Might' post='1891861' date='Jun 15 2009, 04:48 PM']I guess what I'm asking is, do you believe that there is a role for reason?[/quote] Yes, its role -- according to the Eastern Fathers -- is to cease activity, because it is only when one has moved beyond what is intelligible to the created mind that he can grasp God by faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1891864' date='Jun 15 2009, 06:52 PM']Yes, its role -- according to the Eastern Fathers -- is to cease activity, because it is only when one has moved beyond what is intelligible to the created mind that he can grasp God by faith.[/quote] But what about grasping what is human? Do you believe there is a role for reason in that? I think you have said before that you reject philosophy. But much of philosophy deals with human matters (e.g., how we think). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 [quote name='Era Might' post='1891870' date='Jun 15 2009, 04:57 PM']But what about grasping what is human? Do you believe there is a role for reason in that? I think you have said before that you reject philosophy. But much of philosophy deals with human matters (e.g., how we think).[/quote] Created reason is designed to investigate and learn things about creation, but it cannot transcend the gap between the uncreated and the created, for that can only be unidirectionally transgressed by God through His energies. I do not reject philosophy in general, but only when it is applied to God. If you want to understand where I am coming from better you should read the opening sections of St. Gregory of Nyssa's treatise "The Life of Moses" in which he speaks about the proper uses of Greek philosophy, and the very limited nature of those proper uses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1891879' date='Jun 15 2009, 07:03 PM']If you want to understand where I am coming from better you should read the opening sections of St. Gregory of Nyssa's treatise "The Life of Moses" in which he speaks about the proper uses of Greek philosophy, and the very limited nature of those proper uses.[/quote] Thanks, I will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oik Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 [quote]it is only when one has moved beyond what is intelligible to the created mind that he can grasp God by faith.[/quote] ...and you were surprised when a certain eager young Roman Catholic asked you to be his mentor... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 [quote name='Patrick' post='1891777' date='Jun 15 2009, 04:59 PM']And yet you both are in communion with each other. Fascinating. Not casting judgment. It just surprises me how long this arrangement has been able to exist.[/quote] I think we're like the family where the in-laws hate each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musturde Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1893195' date='Jun 16 2009, 02:04 PM']I think we're like the family where the in-laws hate each other. [/quote] No the in-laws are fine. They just don't eat together. Edited June 16, 2009 by musturde Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 A couple of interesting pictures of Cardinal Bergoglio (a.k.a., Pope Francis) concelebrating the Divine Liturgy: He did mix and match vestments, which is not supposed to be done, but cool pictures none-the-less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anastasia13 Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 A couple of interesting pictures of Cardinal Bergoglio (a.k.a., Pope Francis) concelebrating the Divine Liturgy: He did mix and match vestments, which is not supposed to be done, but cool pictures none-the-less. Why not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 (edited) Why not? I think the Roman Church has basically forbidden the blending of vestments in order to protect the Eastern Catholic Churches, which - as a percentage of Catholics - remain very small. The danger is that blending the vestments (and other indifferentist liturgical practices) will dilute the Eastern Catholic Churches and bring about their rapid Latinization. I should add that when my Eastern Orthodox friends looked at the pictures they came away more opposed than ever to any kind of ecumenical rapprochement between the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Churches. I have even noticed a shift against Pope Francis in posts at OC.net (one of the largest Orthodox internet fora). Right after he was elected Pope he was rather popular, but many posts reflect a growing disillusionment with him among Orthodox Christians. Edited August 10, 2013 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 The Ukrainian Catholic bishop also doesn't have a beard, which is rather disappointing. :unsure: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now