Anglican Nuns Going Roman

[OraProMe]

[quote name='VeniteAdoremus' post='1891241' date='Jun 15 2009, 09:03 AM']I didn't hear anyone pull an Extra Ecclessia. But that might have been me.[/quote]

I don't get it? But it's 11pm here and I just got back from a 3 hour lecture on internation relations between Taiwan and China, so it's probably my fault.

[puellapaschalis]

Vatican II didn't change any teachings of the Church. If it did, it wouldn't have been a valid Council. So if EENS was taught before Vatican II, it's still taught now (assuming someone pulled an EENS; if not, replace EENS with $teaching).

Besides, if people want to tussle over what Vatican II said and did not say about anything other than religious life, Vocation Station is not the place to do it (imo). These sisters have decided to "return" to Rome, to enter into full union with the Vicar of Christ. [i]That[/i] is definitely worth celebrating, and I don't believe anyone can tick people off for wanting to do the same.

Edited June 15, 2009 by puellapaschalis

[Grace06]

Would you please relax? I have [b]never[/b], [b]ever[/b] experienced such uncharitable behavior in my life!

Lighten up! This site is filled with some of the most unkind, bigoted people - and it makes me cringe to think you call yourselves Catholics. It is folks like you who give the church a bad name, it is why others dislike us.

As a church we've come such a long way in [b]accepting all[/b], not only those who are Catholic ~ but comments here take us back, to yes, pre-Vat II - a time when we were unkind, uncharitable and down right mean-spirited.

You can say what you want - but comments like "poor soul" would never come from one who professes to follow Jesus - and we can do that very well, as holy women and men, Catholic or not.

People like you read what you want in to any church teaching or document and without a change of heart, you will never see the light - nor will you be on the highway to heaven, my friend.

[CatherineM]

I'm confused as to why it would be unkind or bigoted for rejoicing in someone joining the church?

[Grace06]

I'm sorry - Not referring to the community joining the church, but to a few comments by others...a few, not all or even most.

..sigh... those kind of truly uncharitable, high horse comments make me fume - and I let go at those posters.

Again, my apologies to you and others who have not made such unkind comments.

[OraProMe]

[i]Lighten up! This site is filled with some of the most unkind, bigoted people - and it makes me cringe to think you call yourselves Catholics[/i].

I believe that there is No Salvation Outside the Church precisely because I call myself a Catholic.

[i]
As a church we've come such a long way in [b]accepting all[/b], not only those who are Catholic ~ but comments here take us back, to yes, pre-Vat II - a time when we were unkind, uncharitable and down right mean-spirited.[/i]

What is mean spirited about desiring the salvation of the world through the Church and bringing those in error to the fullness of Truth. The fullness of truth which subsists only in the Catholic Church, a teaching affirmed by Vatican II which you seem to reference so much.


[i]You can say what you want - but comments like "poor soul" would never come from one who professes to follow Jesus - and we can do that very well, as holy women and men, Catholic or not.[/i]

Any soul that does not have Our Lord in the Eucharist such as the Anglicans is indeed spiritually poor and I rejoice that they're converting to the true faith.

[i]People like you read what you want in to any church teaching or document and without a change of heart, you will never see the light - nor will you be on the highway to heaven, my friend.[/i]

This is so deliciously ironic. I'm trying not to get personal, but it's actually "people like you that read what you want into any church teaching." One that is not consistent with 1,960 years of Catholic belief.
People like me don't read anything into the documents other than their official interpretation given by the Holy See. Your reading of the Councils teaching on our seperated brethren has been corrected by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

At any rate, what on earth is wrong with rejoicing over the conversion of these sisters?

Edited June 15, 2009 by OraProMe

[VeniteAdoremus]

I seriously don't see how any comments made here were unkind or uncharitable, so I can't tell either whether mine are among them.

I can't speak for others, but my comments were certainly [i]not meant that way[/i]. I apologise if they did come over as uncharitable or unkind. I really didn't want to upset you, Grace.

OraProMe: I referred to the idea of "extra ecclesiam nulla salus", or "no salvation outside the Church", which states that someone who does not die in full communion with the Roman Catholic Church cannot go to Heaven. This is a topic of much debate in many circles but, hopefully, not here, as most people here agree with the VCII clarification that there is indeed salvation possible outside of the Church.

[OraProMe]

Oh, EENS has to be understood correctly. An ultra-exclusive interpretation of it was condemned back in the '40's.
This guy called Fr. Feeney etc. etc.

Basically that if non-Catholic is saved it's because they're Catholic in their hearts. They belong to the soul, but not the body of the Church and they're saved in spite of their false beliefs not because of them.

yadda yadda yadda

It's been around since Augustine, it's nothing to do with VII

[juchu]

Okay, here is such a "spiritually poor soul"

As a lutheran who is in search of her vocation, I have been following the vocation station for quite a while now, though I never really took part in the conversations. But your comments, your stories were always very encouriging for me, since there are not so much lutheran ppl talking about vocation into the religious life and we also have just a few communities.
So even though I am not catholic, I took part in your journeys and prayed for you.

I have known a lot of catholic sisters, even lived with a community for a year, worked in a missionary project in a less developed country, prayed, took part in the Eucharist. They, the priests in the diocese, the fellow sisters of the entire province, were aware that I am lutheran. With "my" priest and my sisters I discussed the issue of the Eucharist at the beginning and their answer was "if you feel that Christ invites you, then there is nothing in your way to participate". (Since I have been a lot to Taizé in France, which is a ecumenic community, but they celebrate "catholic" eucarist, I have known before that I believe in Christs presence, whether it is a "lutheran" eucharist or a "catholic" one)

I am aware that this most likely is going a bit too far for most of you, but all this has made me respect the Catholic Church. As much as I respect my church. We are all God s children.

Reading such statements here really hurts me. We christians have to work for union together. We are not a great testemony for the non-christians, separated like that. I know that the catholic position in regard to union is different than the protestant, since the Catholic Church is not a member of the ecumenical council of churches, but still I can say that phrases that have been mentioned on this board, certainly are not a good testimony for the catholic church.


:edit: language, I am not a native speaker

Edited June 15, 2009 by juchu

[puellapaschalis]

Did Sr. Mary Helga quote some Vatican II documents (in [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s=&showtopic=94989&view=findpost&p=1890774"]this post[/url]), which then somehow disappeared, and which are then referred to by Grace06 in [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s=&showtopic=94989&view=findpost&p=1891230"]this post[/url]? That's the only way I can figure out her comment:

[quote]I certainly hope no one is deleting VAT II documents! Thank you for posting the following.[/quote]

(I thought Sr. Mary Helga had left PM, but if she's back then that's only a good thing )

But yea, I don't understand why it's not a good thing to rejoice over people becoming Catholic - ut unum sint, anyone? The Papacy will always be part of the Church, and moreover in the centre of the Church. Separated bretheren (I don't understand what's wrong with that term either; surely it's better than "heretics"?) who choose to come into full union with Rome are obeying Christ in His wish that "they [we] all be one".

Could be cos I'm at work and stressed, but I'm also confused.

Edit: some posts in the thread appear to have been edited, but I can't find [i]any[/i] use of the phrase "poor soul" before [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s=&showtopic=94989&view=findpost&p=1891276"]this post[/url]. What, concretely, are people being accused of by Grace06 and Graciela?

Edited June 15, 2009 by puellapaschalis

[juchu]

oh and back to the original topic, the Anglican Sisters converting:

I believe one has to respect the communities decision. It is their option about how they feel they can respond best to Christs call. Religious life in the Catholic Church has definitly a longer tradition, then in lutheran or anglican Churches. Within the protestant churches one always has to "justify" their option to religious life. It is simply not well known and look at weirdly, whereas it makes an integral part of the Church in catholic understandings.
I know of a now catholic community in Sweden which also did that. (Although not as an entire community, there is still a church-of-sweden branch) Its part of their history and if the Spirit moves them to do so, there is no way to critice that.
But also no way to proclaim this as a triumph for Catholics.

[she_who_is_not]

I don't necessarily think of this as a triumph for Catholics but as a triumph for the church. When I worshipped as an Anglican part of the prayers of the people included the petition, "Father, we pray for your holy catholic church/That we all may be one." There is such a longing in that prayer.

I believe that division in the church is quite literally a wound in the body of Christ. I also believe that the healing of these wounds is part of the realization of the Kingdom. I spent a large part of my life praying for reconciliation of Canterbury and Rome before I understood that it would happen one conversion at a time.

I rejoice with and for these Sisters because they are part of that healing. It brings me so much personal joy. I wish them all the same grace of fulfillment I have experienced in entering the Church.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='puellapaschalis' post='1891252' date='Jun 15 2009, 07:23 AM']Besides, if people want to tussle over what Vatican II said and did not say about anything other than religious life, Vocation Station is not the place to do it[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
agreed. please do not use the VS to debate on the teaching of EENS. take it to the debate table.

[Grace06]

[quote name='puellapaschalis' post='1891307' date='Jun 15 2009, 12:05 PM']Edit: some posts in the thread appear to have been edited, but I can't find [i]any[/i] use of the phrase "poor soul" before [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s=&showtopic=94989&view=findpost&p=1891276"]this post[/url]. What, concretely, are people being accused of by Grace06 and Graciela?[/quote]

OraProMe, edited the reply in which I was called a poor soul - it was unkind and offensive.

I am very sorry. My reply was only to OraProMe...trying not single out that poster was a mistake as it appeared I was referring to other posts. No people....just one person who edited the post so others would not understand what was so hurtful and offensive.

So sorry.

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Grace06' post='1891346' date='Jun 15 2009, 10:51 AM']OraProMe, edited the reply in which I was called a poor soul - it was unkind and offensive.

I am very sorry. My reply was only to OraProMe...trying not single out that poster was a mistake as it appeared I was referring to other posts. No people....just one person who edited the post so others would not understand what was so hurtful and offensive.

So sorry. [/quote]


Yes, I edited it for that exact reason. I didn't want to sound offensive. But you'd already read it I suppose.
You seem to be basing your beliefs on emotion rather than authentic doctrine, which is maybe why you haven't replied to my response about Vatican II and your accusations that I'm uncharitable and not on the "highway to heaven" (ironic, given the topic).

Remember the parable about the man who builds his house on sand?