Anglican Nuns Going Roman

[Grace06]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1890359' date='Jun 14 2009, 03:13 PM']Yes we can certainly respectfully disagree here, some more prickly than others though. I agree with age come wisdom, otherwise we'd never make it to be old in the first place. I certainly hope this old beaten up body has another 20 years left in it.[/quote]

Well, then hopefully, I'll join you. This for sure old, not too beaten up body, will, I pray, see another 20 years as well!

Gee, maybe we can let old sleeping dogs lie....no more quips at one another.

[CatherineM]

[quote name='Grace06' post='1890541' date='Jun 14 2009, 05:14 PM']Well, then hopefully, I'll join you. This for sure old, not too beaten up body, will, I pray, see another 20 years as well!

Gee, maybe we can let old sleeping dogs lie....no more quips at one another. [/quote]

I wasn't trying to quip. Honest. I'm just feeling cranky today. The weather turned wet, and my arthritis is killing me. I've also been snapping at a teenager on another thread. That will cost me a few rosaries this week with my confessor.

[AbsconditaInDeo]

Praise God!! That's great!

[Gemma]

[quote name='DameAgnes' post='1890237' date='Jun 14 2009, 06:13 AM']These Anglican Sisters are going to be received into church September 3rd

[url="http://www.asspconvent.org/index.htm#INTRODUCTION"]http://www.asspconvent.org/index.htm#INTRODUCTION[/url]

From a friend: "Long the most traditional order in the Episcopal Church, it's been increasingly apparent that their days in that church were numbered. Their discussions with the Archdiocese of Baltimore have gone on quietly for some time, and more intensively over the past year or so -- and now apparently, it's official. The "first public announcement" of this was made on Thursday at the Anglican Use Conference in Houston. All Saints Sisters of the Poor, of Catonsville (Baltimore) and Philadelphia, will be received into the Catholic Church on September 3rd.

SPS

_______________


[url="http://www.asspconvent.org/"]http://www.asspconvent.org/[/url][/quote]

Does anyone know if they're going to be Anglican Use Liturgy, like Our Lady of the Atonement in Texas?

Blessings,
Gemma

[Graciela]

I hope that they will be happy, but I am little concerned about the triumphalist attitude here about their decision.

Hey, the Episcopal Church just received RC priest, Father Cutie, in Florida a couple weeks ago- his orders have not yet been received so he is still a lay Episcopalian. I don't know whether he plans to discern for priesthood in the Episcopal Church- the Episcopal Church has plenty of priests, so it would not be automatic to receive his orders.

It doesn't matter how many groups of traditional Anglican nuns become Roman- without enough priests, Rome still has a big challenge with providing the faithful with access to the Sacraments, especially Holy Eucharist, the "source and summit" of our Christian life.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Graciela

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Grace06' post='1890338' date='Jun 14 2009, 01:14 PM']All separated brethren? Dear heart, the way to heaven is not limited to Catholics. [/quote]

All salvation comes in and through the Catholic Church. Even the seperated brethren who reach heaven do so through the Catholic Church. If a protestant is saved it is despite their membership in a heretical sect (Anglicans, for example) not because of it.

So it's indeed right to celebrate their conversion.

[Incarnate Word Postulant]

what happened?

No idea where the post went. Never mind. Edited June 15, 2009 by Incarnate Word Postulant

[Thomist-in-Training]

[quote name='Graciela' post='1890634' date='Jun 14 2009, 08:13 PM']I hope that they will be happy, but I am little [b]concerned [/b]about the triumphalist attitude here about their decision.

Hey, the Episcopal Church just received RC priest, Father Cutie, in Florida a couple weeks ago- his orders have not yet been received so he is still a lay Episcopalian. I don't know whether he plans to discern for priesthood in the Episcopal Church- the Episcopal Church has plenty of priests, so it would not be automatic to receive his orders.

[b]It doesn't matter [/b]how many groups of traditional Anglican nuns become Roman- without enough priests, Rome still has a big challenge with providing the faithful with access to the Sacraments, especially Holy Eucharist, the "source and summit" of our Christian life.[/quote]

Uh. Yes, if there were 9 Anglican men who converted to Catholicism and became priests, we'd have 9 more priests and that would be good. It's [b]also [/b]good for there to be 9 or however many Anglican women who become (God willing) Catholic nuns. For all we know, through the courage and sacrifice of these women there will be enough graces for [b]hundreds [/b]of priests to respond to vocations.

It's not a math thing like that, of course. But the point is that Catholic nuns are a [b]good [/b]thing for the Catholic Church, not a neutral thing or a bad thing. Why should it concern you that they make us happy, even if they aren't priests?

I'm writing under the assumption that the some or all of the converts intend to form or enter a Roman Catholic religious order.

[Thomist-in-Training]

P.S. re earlier discussion in this thread.

We should pray for [b]all [/b]to enter the Catholic Church. By God's grace, [i]perhaps [/i]some may be saved without entering Her. But it is right to pray that everyone enters the Church. To say otherwise is relativism.

[puellapaschalis]

[quote name='Thomist-in-Training' post='1890825' date='Jun 15 2009, 04:20 AM']We should pray for [b]all [/b]to enter the Catholic Church. By God's grace, [i]perhaps [/i]some may be saved without entering Her. But it is right to pray that everyone enters the Church. To say otherwise is relativism.[/quote]

Verbum

[VeniteAdoremus]

I don't so much feel triumphant as happy. For them. And for us, for having them. I don't see it as a "win" in the Great Catholic-Anglican Match - we're talking about souls here!

Mostly, it's because I am happy in the Catholic Church, and I agree with the idea that you don't have to be Catholic to be a Thoroughly Good Person and go to Heaven, but you [i]are[/i] making it difficult for yourself, and missing out on much joy.

[TotusTuusMaria]

[quote name='Graciela' post='1890634' date='Jun 14 2009, 08:13 PM']I hope that they will be happy, but I am little concerned about the triumphalist attitude here about their decision.

Hey, the Episcopal Church just received RC priest, Father Cutie, in Florida a couple weeks ago- his orders have not yet been received so he is still a lay Episcopalian. I don't know whether he plans to discern for priesthood in the Episcopal Church- the Episcopal Church has plenty of priests, so it would not be automatic to receive his orders.

It doesn't matter how many groups of traditional Anglican nuns become Roman- without enough priests, Rome still has a big challenge with providing the faithful with access to the Sacraments, especially Holy Eucharist, the "source and summit" of our Christian life.[/quote]

As Venite said, these are souls, no matter if they are called to be priests or nuns. They are souls. More souls coming to the fullness of Christ's Gospel.

Christ gave us the fullness of truth in the Catholic Church. We should desire for all souls to take part in this. The Anglicans (while perhaps having bits and maybe chunks of truth on some points) do not possess the fullness of it.

They will also be able to now truly taste this "source and summit," which as Anglicans they were/are not doing.

Their coming home to the fullness of truth and Jesus in the Eucharist is wonderful and amazing.

And I am not worried about there being enough priests. I pray for them and for their increase, and I trust that God will provide for His Church which he promised the gates of hell will not prevail against and which he has provided for fine for the last 2000 years.

And the vocations which are perhaps not as abundantly responded to here in the West are being made up for elsewhere in the world. There is no doubt a challenge, but I don't believe it is as terribly overwhelming as some seem to make it appear.

Edited June 15, 2009 by TotusTuusMaria

[Grace06]

I certainly hope no one is deleting VAT II documents! Thank you for posting the following.

As you'll find in the following Official document, one need not be Catholic to gain heaven. That would be a pre-Vat II standing.....and since all here follow the Magisterium, perhaps you will amend the unkind/rigid comments? God bless!

The fate of non-Catholics, as expressed at Vatican II:
The "Dogmatic Constitution on the Church - Lumen Gentium" (1964) is one of many documents to come out of the Second Vatican Ecumenical Council (often referred to as "Vatican II"). The Council was held in Rome between 1962 and 1965. Lumen Gentium" contains in its Chapter 1 an essay on "The Mystery of the church." Sections 14 to 16 describe the potential for salvation of: Followers of the Catholic Church,
Members of other Christian denominations, and
Believers of non-Christian religions.

The section "The Constitution of the Church" the assessment reads:

"The Catholic Church professes that it is the one, holy catholic and apostolic Church of Christ; this it does not and could not deny. But in its Constitution the Church now solemnly acknowledges that the Holy Ghost is truly active in the churches and communities separated from itself. To these other Christian Churches the Catholic Church is bound in many ways: through reverence for God's word in the Scriptures; through the fact of baptism; through other sacraments which they recognize."

5. The non-Christian may not be blamed for his ignorance of Christ and his Church; salvation is open to him also, if he seeks God sincerely and if he follows the commands of his conscience, for through this means the Holy Ghost acts upon all men; this divine action is not confined within the limited boundaries of the visible Church." 6


The "Decree on Ecumenism: Unitatis Redintegratio" (1964) is one of nine decrees of Vatican II. It deals with Ecumenism, which the Catholic Church defines as the reuniting of all Christian faith groups under the authority of the pope. This includes Eastern Orthodox churches, the Anglican Communion, and Protestant denominations -- those who "came to be separated from full communion with the Catholic Church." Section 3 deals with "separated brethren" -- followers of Christian denominations which The document repeats the belief that the Roman Catholic church is the only true Christian church -- the only denomination which "has been endowed with all divinely revealed truth and with all means of grace." Other Christian denominations are considered deficient. But the document does recognize that salvation is possible through the Catholic church for followers of those separated faith groups. It recognizes other denominations as fellow Christians:

"The children who are born into these Communities and who grow up believing in Christ cannot be accused of the sin involved in the separation, and the Catholic Church embraces upon them as brothers, with respect and affection. For men who believe in Christ and have been truly baptized are in communion with the Catholic Church even though this communion is imperfect. ...it remains true that all who have been justified by faith in Baptism are members of Christ's body, and have a right to be called Christian, and so are correctly accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church."

"Moreover, some and even very many of the significant elements and endowments which together go to build up and give life to the Church itself, can exist outside the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church: the written word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, and visible elements too. All of these, which come from Christ and lead back to Christ, belong by right to the one Church of Christ."

"The brethren divided from us also use many liturgical actions of the Christian religion. These most certainly can truly engender a life of grace in ways that vary according to the condition of each Church or Community. These liturgical actions must be regarded as capable of giving access to the community of salvation."

"It follows that the separated Churches and Communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church."

"Nevertheless, our separated brethren, whether considered as individuals or as Communities and Churches, are not blessed with that unity which Jesus Christ wished to bestow on all those who through Him were born again into one body, and with Him quickened to newness of life- that unity which the Holy Scriptures and the ancient Tradition of the Church proclaim. For it is only through Christ's Catholic Church, which is 'the all-embracing means of salvation,' that they can benefit fully from the means of salvation. We believe that Our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, in order to establish the one Body of Christ on earth to which all should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the people of God." (Footnote references deleted) 7

The "Declaration on the relation of the Church to non-Christian religions: Nostra Aetate," (1965) is one of three declarations of Vatican II. 8 It states that: "God made the whole human race to live over the face of the earth."
"The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these [non-Christian] religions."
"God holds the Jews most dear for the sake of their Fathers..."
"...the [Roman Catholic] Church is the new People of God..."
"...the Church has always held and holds now, Christ underwent His passion and death freely, because of the sins of men and out of infinite love, in order that all may reach salvation."

[OraProMe]

Sigh.


[quote name='Grace06' post='1891230' date='Jun 15 2009, 07:31 AM']I certainly hope no one is deleting VAT II documents! Thank you for posting the following.[/quote]
I, like most here, love Vatican II when it's followed properly.


[quote]As you'll find in the following Official document, one need not be Catholic to gain heaven. That would be a pre-Vat II standing.....and since all here follow the Magisterium, perhaps you will amend the unkind/rigid comments? God bless![/quote]

You should be more careful with your words. There is no such thing as a "pre-Vat II standing". Doctrine is immutable and never changes. Truth is objective and does not conform to cultural or emotional conditions. The very fact you sayhat the Catholic doctrine on salvation changed suggests you don't have a proper understanding of Catholicism (no offence intended).

[quote]The section "The Constitution of the Church" the assessment reads:[/quote]
The assesment is not authoritave. Do not quote commentaries, quote the actual documents. Vatican II has been subjected to many heretical interpretations that the Holy See has had to, and still is, cleaning up. Your erroneous interpretation of the Councils teaching on the doctrine "Outside the Church there is no salvation" was corrected by Card. Ratzinger in a document called Dominus Jesu.
Basically, a commentary really holds little value in comparison to the actual decree's of the Council.


[quote]Catholic Church professes that it is the one, holy catholic and apostolic Church of Christ; this it does not and could not deny. But in its Constitution the Church now solemnly acknowledges that the Holy Ghost is truly active in the churches and communities separated from itself. To these other Christian Churches the Catholic Church is bound in many ways: through reverence for God's word in the Scriptures; through the fact of baptism; through other sacraments which they recognize."[/quote]

That has nothing to do with salvation. Furthermore they are elements of sanctifcation which our seperate brethren have retained, however they truly belong to the Catholic Church and compel towards true unity.

[quote]5. The non-Christian may not be blamed for his ignorance of Christ and his Church; salvation is open to him also, if he seeks God sincerely and if he follows the commands of his conscience, for through this means the Holy Ghost acts upon all men; this divine action is not confined within the limited boundaries of the visible Church." 6[/quote]
This is called Baptism of Desire and invincible ignorance. It's not a new teaching, and the heretic or schismatic is still saved through and by the Catholic Church. Because in their heart, which only God can read, they implicitly desire the fullness of truth.

Pope Pius IX, in his encyclical "On Promotion of False Doctrines" said the following:

[i]We all know that those who suffer from invincible ignorance with regard to our holy religion, if they carefully keep the precepts of the natural law which have been written by God in the hearts of all men, if they are prepared to obey God, and if they lead a virtuous and dutiful life, can, by the power of divine light and grace, attain eternal life. For God, who knows completely the minds and souls, the thoughts and habits of all men, will not permit, in accord with His infinite goodness and mercy, anyone who is not guilty of a voluntary fault to suffer eternal punishment [/i]

[quote]The "Decree on Ecumenism: Unitatis Redintegratio" (1964) is one of nine decrees of Vatican II. It deals with Ecumenism, which the Catholic Church defines as the reuniting of all Christian faith groups under the authority of the pope. This includes Eastern Orthodox churches, the Anglican Communion, and Protestant denominations -- those who "came to be separated from full communion with the Catholic Church." Section 3 deals with "separated brethren" -- followers of Christian denominations which The document repeats the belief that the Roman Catholic church is the only true Christian church -- the only denomination which "has been endowed with all divinely revealed truth and with all means of grace." Other Christian denominations are considered deficient. But the document does recognize that salvation is possible through the Catholic church for followers of those separated faith groups. It recognizes other denominations as fellow Christians:[/quote]
Key phrase: "salvation is possible THROUGH THE CATHOLIC CHURCh for followers of those separated faith groups".

[i]
"Moreover, some and even very many of the significant elements and endowments which together go to build up and give life to the Church itself, can exist outside the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church: the written word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, and visible elements too. All of these, which come from Christ and lead back to Christ, [b]belong by right to the one Church of Christ."[/[/b]i]

Edited June 15, 2009 by OraProMe

[VeniteAdoremus]

I didn't hear anyone pull an Extra Ecclessia. But that might have been me.