picchick Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 I think we should move the debate here because I do not want to hijack Hassan's great topic. Pros and Cons to the Middle/Dark Ages: I have stated much of my opinion of the dark ages. Let's continue here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeresaBenedicta Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 Some of the greatest philosophical thinking came from the Middle Ages. Not to mention great art. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picchick Posted June 13, 2009 Author Share Posted June 13, 2009 [quote name='picchick' post='1889432' date='Jun 12 2009, 11:01 PM']Is that the only thing you took from my post? What about the fact that the people did not have the knowledge of the faith as we do today? If I were living in the Middle Ages, you know full well that I would not have the understanding and knowledge of the faith as I do. Instead my only purpose would be to raise a family and tend to the farm. YOU brought up the objectification of women. Not I. I was debating that fact. Men and women alike were not given the opporunity of learning the faith as we do today. Was this totally the Church's fault. No of course not. It was also the times. The fact that people were not able to get the education as people are today. The fact that not everyone could read etc. I am not saying that the Church was a bully and sexist. But those things did occur and you cannot deny it. I am saying now, people who come to the faith do so in most cases under full knowledge that it is the true Church. Another fact that you cannot deny.[/quote] [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1889443' date='Jun 12 2009, 11:20 PM']This assumes most girls would be dumb pregnant peasant girls, it also assumes that peasant girls where dumb. I object and refuse that I must know any such thing. The faithfuls knowledge of the faith may well have been stronger then. This age is no better in terms of evil than those ages, if anything this age is more evil and wicked. Which was my original point.[/quote] No, it means that most girls were UNEDUCATED. It does not assume that they were dumb pregnant peasant girls. It means that they had no reason to go to a university or to study theology. They were to stay at home and to spin and keep the house, help with the farm and take care of the family. It was a great opportunity to go to a school and learn "book smarts" rather than "house smarts". Can you deny this? Furthermore, you say that the faithful's knowledge of the faith may well have been stronger then. I disagree. Knowledge and faith are two separate things. Their FAITH may have been stronger but can you really say that they had the same knowledge and understanding that you and I have? I am talking about the common people. Not the priests, nuns, and scholars of the day. We still have those. [quote]It wasn't the Church fault at all. She does not sin. And no I do not doubt such things happened I simply in no way will blame Mother Church.[/quote] Neither do I. I blame those who worked for Mother Church. The priests, the bishops and yes, even the Popes. They are the ones who thought that using fear and scare tactics would be a good way to save people from hell. (I am speaking of the torture and death part). Also, it was not feasible to teach the common people about the faith to the extent that we are taught now. It would be an impossible task. In this day in age, we have the technology, intelligence, and time to be able to read and study the faith. Yes, evil will always exist. I am not saying that the middle ages or modern ages are any less/more evil. But what I am saying is that middle ages are the best of ages just because the Church was the supreme religion at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 The Church had much greater influence on public life in the Middle Ages than now, which is certainly a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 (edited) [quote name='picchick' post='1889511' date='Jun 13 2009, 01:40 AM']No, it means that most girls were UNEDUCATED. It does not assume that they were dumb pregnant peasant girls. It means that they had no reason to go to a university or to study theology. They were to stay at home and to spin and keep the house, help with the farm and take care of the family. It was a great opportunity to go to a school and learn "book smarts" rather than "house smarts". Can you deny this?[/quote] Both are great opportunities. Being a farm mother or an college woman. [quote name='picchick' post='1889511' date='Jun 13 2009, 01:40 AM']Furthermore, you say that the faithful's knowledge of the faith may well have been stronger then. I disagree. Knowledge and faith are two separate things. Their FAITH may have been stronger but can you really say that they had the same knowledge and understanding that you and I have? I am talking about the common people. Not the priests, nuns, and scholars of the day. We still have those.[/quote] Since they spent more time in Church and more devoted than most common people of today. Yes. [quote name='picchick' post='1889511' date='Jun 13 2009, 01:40 AM']Neither do I. I blame those who worked for Mother Church. The priests, the bishops and yes, even the Popes. They are the ones who thought that using fear and scare tactics would be a good way to save people from hell. (I am speaking of the torture and death part).[/quote] Ok [quote name='picchick' post='1889511' date='Jun 13 2009, 01:40 AM']Also, it was not feasible to teach the common people about the faith to the extent that we are taught now. It would be an impossible task. In this day in age, we have the technology, intelligence, and time to be able to read and study the faith.[/quote] I have doubts that's true. The internet and other technologies can be a great source of facts and errors. We also live in a age of great numerous heresies. [quote name='picchick' post='1889511' date='Jun 13 2009, 01:40 AM']Yes, evil will always exist. I am not saying that the middle ages or modern ages are any less/more evil. But what I am saying is that middle ages are the best of ages just because the Church was the supreme religion at the time.[/quote] As we get closer to the coming of the Antichrist and return of Christ, with every age the world seems to become more wicked and evil. I believe the best age for man thus far was before the fall, and the birth and life of Christ on this earth. Edited June 13, 2009 by KnightofChrist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximilianus Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 (edited) A good book to read on the subject; "Those Terrible Middle Ages" by Regine Pernoud. Pernoud contends that it was the neo-classical ideas of the Rennaisance that led to a decline of the status of women in society. Edited June 13, 2009 by Maximilianus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picchick Posted June 13, 2009 Author Share Posted June 13, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1889515' date='Jun 13 2009, 01:48 AM']The Church had much greater influence on public life in the Middle Ages than now, which is certainly a good thing.[/quote] True but how and why? [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1889525' date='Jun 13 2009, 02:01 AM']Both are great opportunities. Being a farm mother or an college woman.[/quote] maybe you are missing my point...I don't see anything wrong with being a farm mother. But what I am saying, which I think you are missing, is the fact that women just didn't go to college. To be a learned woman was seen as useless in that day in age. And with that would go the in depth knowledge of Catholicism. [quote]Since they spent more time in Church and more devoted than most common people of today. Yes.[/quote] Again, you are missing my point. You are mixing up knowledge with faith. I am not debating on the faith of the people. I am debating on the knowledge/understanding of their religion. For example, I can explain why I am Catholic. I can explain the Eucharist, why it is Jesus's Body and Blood. I can explain the symbolism behind the words and actions of the priest at Mass. Could they? Probably not. They just didn't get the same education as we do now on the faith if we take the time to study it. At that time, there was just not the need nor the resources to do so. That is what I am arguing and you are missing it. Or seemingly missing it. [quote]I have doubts that's true. The internet and other technologies can be a great source of facts and errors. We also live in a age of great numerous heresies.[/quote] So did they. They had a great amount of heresies. But most heretics were put to death Seriously though. They lived through many trials and tribulations as well. My point with the technologies is that it has allowed us more time and more resources for studying our faith. There is more outlets for those who want to learn and understand than there was in that day in age. [quote]As we get closer to the coming of the Antichrist and return of Christ, with every age the world seems to become more wicked and evil. I believe the best age for man thus far was before the fall, and the birth and life of Christ on this earth.[/quote] I guess I don't care how close are to the return of Christ. I just am arguing the point that the Middle ages were not the greatest time on earth. There will alway be evil in the world. And if we take you opinion then we could say, "The greatest time on earth was the time of Christ." Edited June 13, 2009 by picchick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picchick Posted June 13, 2009 Author Share Posted June 13, 2009 I mean come on people! There were no flushing toliets!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 Not to be disrespectful but honestly I just don't care that much to continue this debate. Yes in many ways things are easier in our age than then, but in many ways our age is vastly more wicked. I'm afraid I have nothing more to add as of now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 [quote name='dominicansoul' post='1889448' date='Jun 12 2009, 10:36 PM']They aren't dark to me!! The Dominicans were founded during this time!!! Viva Veritas!!![/quote] [quote name='dominicansoul' post='1889556' date='Jun 13 2009, 04:02 AM']The Dominicans were founded during the "Dark ages..." (we Dominicans do not like to use that terminology...as it is completely worldy and does not reflect the Church at that time...) the mere fact that one man, St. Dominic would be so inspired to do something about the ignorance and stupidity of heresy at that time should tells us the HOLY SPIRIT was a'movin' and improvin' life back then...[/quote] [quote name='dominicansoul' post='1889557' date='Jun 13 2009, 04:07 AM']...and sadly, I think in today's conditions in the church, St. Dominic would have a much more tougher time....than in the "dark ages..." i think we are living the darkest age man has ever seen...[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picchick Posted June 13, 2009 Author Share Posted June 13, 2009 Agreed. There were many great things that came from the MIDDLE ages. I don't know why they call it the Dark Ages. I didn't really look into that. I mean St. Joan of Arc came from that time...well maybe a little after it. But anyways, there were a lot of great things that came from that time, St. Dominic, St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Francis. I love the Cathedrals and the art that came from this time and I think that the music is something else too. I just would disagree with the thought that it was the greatest time for the Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 I think my main pro from that time is that people could devote their entire lives to one project, cathedral or public work, and be supported and celebrated for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 [quote name='picchick' post='1889564' date='Jun 13 2009, 06:34 AM']Agreed. There were many great things that came from the MIDDLE ages. I don't know why they call it the Dark Ages.[/quote] The Dark Ages are what is sometimes called the Early Middle Ages, just after the fall of the Roman Empire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picchick Posted June 13, 2009 Author Share Posted June 13, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1889749' date='Jun 13 2009, 03:15 PM']The Dark Ages are what is sometimes called the Early Middle Ages, just after the fall of the Roman Empire.[/quote] well then maybe that is why it is considered "Dark" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 St. Patrick and St. Benedict both lived during that time, so I don't think it was particularly dark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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