Heaven; Physical Place Versus Eternal

[Didacus]

OK;

So if heaven is a physical place, as it would have to be if our bodies are ressurected in physical form, then it comes to logic that time would exsit in heaven as well. All things in physical form depend on time in order to move, as every movement is a change and time is a prerequisite for change.


However, heaven is eternal. In pure form, eternity is the abscence of time, not an endless quantity of time.


Soooo....

Can we have both?
or
How are the two notions consolidated?


Talk amongst yourselves, and post your comments.

[kafka]

I would have your conclusion turned on its head.

Heaven is beyond Space/Time. Heaven is a supernatural and transcendental creation since it is with God who is Eternity. It follows that Heaven-being with God who is Eternity-is Timeless and Placeless.

So the real question is how is it, or how can it be explained that glorified bodies (which retain corporeality) could exist in a supernatural realm (or to steal a theologian's term a container) which transcends Place and Time?

At the core this is a mystery, however I have learned some ways of explaining it. Yet my understanding is not comprehensive. The problem deserves attention. Maybe I will post some thoughts later.

Edited June 12, 2009 by kafka

[Didacus]

[quote name='kafka' post='1889034' date='Jun 12 2009, 10:15 AM'][snip]

At the core this is a mystery, however I have learned some ways of explaining it. Yet my understanding is not comprehensive. The problem deserves attention. Maybe I will post some thoughts later.[/quote]

Please do post some thoughts later. This has been in back of my mind for almost two weeks now. I would apprecaite any input (hint hint to you Church Scholars out there...)

God bless, and back to you Bob...

[kafka]

[quote name='Didacus' post='1889066' date='Jun 12 2009, 11:54 AM']Please do post some thoughts later. This has been in back of my mind for almost two weeks now. I would apprecaite any input (hint hint to you Church Scholars out there...)

God bless, and back to you Bob...[/quote]
its been in the back of my mind for years

a good place to start is 1 Corinthians Chapter 15.

[StColette]

Didy, not sure if you saw this thread [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=94420"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=94420[/url]

It's down the page a little here in the Debate Table. It's on a similar if not the same topic. It might give you some insight

[Didacus]

Thank you both, I have some reading ahead of me.


[quote name='kafka' post='1889097' date='Jun 12 2009, 11:56 AM']its been in the back of my mind for years

a good place to start is 1 Corinthians Chapter 15.[/quote]

Citation?

I find it helpful that when people post bible refernces (breifs at least) that they insert the citation in the post - this helps the reader read through fluently wihtout breaking off to search for the actual citation.

Just a little bit to think about. I'll make a T-shirt out of it a little later.

[dairygirl4u2c]

i dont see why time has to be dependant on physical bodies or vise versa.

time has several potential meanings.

one is the movement of things, and that's what we measure (this is popular notion, where people talk about how we dont measure time but really changing events)

the other i think is something that just is, 'now' exists, and in a second it doesnt. ('second' is only a relative term to illustrate an inherent time that is what's being gotten at here)

actually, in both of these systems, a physical body doesn't need time. ie in the first system, we call it time, the movement of stuff, but that's just a convention. in the eternal 'now' of the hereafter tha people talk about, 'the movement of stuff' would just mean stuff moved. we wouldn't age, and other things, that cause people to think we even need time.
in the relative term framework, if there is such a system that indeed exists,, then in the next life there wouldn't be. that more philosophical of an idea anyway-- it might not even exist in this life.

basically, i question why ya think physical body necessitates time.

[dairygirl4u2c]

and i think the second system is verified. the theory of relativity says that if you move closer to the speed of light, you age less. that means, something inherent is being ticked tocked. not the speed of movement of things per se.

so in the hereafter, relativity laws would change, i suppose, such that traveling close to the speed of light or not has no effect on time.
they say God is light. that prob means no time passes. they say time doesn't pass in the next life too. coincidence? probably not. science and spritual intiutions are just verifying each other.
i think theoretically, the idea is it takes either an infinite or close to it amount of energy to move at the speed of light, or something like that. if that's the case, no one would be such that they'd never age. but, if you did the impossible, joined the light, went to heaven, you wouldn't age. (enter the light... do the impossible.. pop phrase in sprituality, too_

interesting idea, the heaven v. time connection.

ive been thinking a lot about the edges of science and sprituality lately, that might have something to do with what im talking about.
i have much more to say sometime to when i have time. (about this an other things, if it comes up

Edited June 14, 2009 by dairygirl4u2c

[kafka]

[quote name='Didacus' post='1889152' date='Jun 12 2009, 02:55 PM']Citation?

I find it helpful that when people post bible refernces (breifs at least) that they insert the citation in the post - this helps the reader read through fluently wihtout breaking off to search for the actual citation.

Just a little bit to think about. I'll make a T-shirt out of it a little later.[/quote]
its a bit long that is why I did not post it however here it is:

{15:40} Also, there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies. But while the one, certainly, has the glory of heaven, the other has the glory of earth.

~ in the the spiritual sense this refers to the glorified bodied. It will be heavenly in that it is designed to reign in the New Heaven and dwell on the New Earth. A glorified body will possess spiritual and corporeal qualities. . .

{15:44} What is sown with an animal body shall rise with a spiritual body. If there is an animal body, there is also a spiritual one.
{15:45} Just as it was written that the first man, Adam, was made with a living soul, so shall the last Adam be made with a spirit brought back to life.
{15:46} So what is, at first, not spiritual, but animal, next becomes spiritual.

~ after the Fall our bodies became more like animals and less like Angels as a punishment. At the resurrection the new glorified bodies will be as they were always meant to be before the Fall namely immaculate, completely free concupiscence, entirely subject and obedient to the soul.

And we will be equal with the Angels as Our Lord taught.

{15:47} The first man, being earthly, was of the earth; the second man, being heavenly, will be of heaven.
{15:48} Such things as are like the earth are earthly; and such things as are like the heavens are heavenly.
{15:49} And so, just as we have carried the image of what is earthly, let us also carry the image of what is heavenly.
{15:50} Now I say this, brothers, because flesh and blood is not able to possess the kingdom of God; neither will what is corrupt possess what is incorrupt.
{15:51} Behold, I tell you a mystery. Certainly, we shall all rise again, but we shall not all be transformed:

~ the Elect will rise with new and transformed glorified bodies fitting for the New Heaven and New Earth. The damned will rise with corrupting bodies fitting for the New Hell

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1889949' date='Jun 13 2009, 09:25 PM']i dont see why time has to be dependant on physical bodies or vise versa.

time has several potential meanings.

one is the movement of things, and that's what we measure (this is popular notion, where people talk about how we dont measure time but really changing events)

the other i think is something that just is, 'now' exists, and in a second it doesnt. ('second' is only a relative term to illustrate an inherent time that is what's being gotten at here)

actually, in both of these systems, a physical body doesn't need time. ie in the first system, we call it time, the movement of stuff, but that's just a convention. in the eternal 'now' of the hereafter tha people talk about, 'the movement of stuff' would just mean stuff moved. we wouldn't age, and other things, that cause people to think we even need time.
in the relative term framework, if there is such a system that indeed exists,, then in the next life there wouldn't be. that more philosophical of an idea anyway-- it might not even exist in this life.

basically, i question why ya think physical body necessitates time.[/quote]
there is another way to view the Time and Place problem of Heaven.

Being with God who is Eternity Heaven is [i]beyond[/i] Time and Place. It is transcendent and supernatural, and not analogous to anything observable by the laws of motion. It could be said to be Timeless and Placeless, however Heaven is not lacking so it would be just as true to say it is Timeful and Placeful. One in Heaven is open to all Times and all Places, without limitation, without being stuck so to speak.


In general for anyone reading this thread here are some interesting Rahner quotes I ran into yesterday concerning the same general topic:

"The transfigured corporeality of which revelation speaks (1 Cor 15) seems to indicate that the body not only obtains a perfect plasticity in relation to spirit [or soul] of man as supernaturally perfected and divinized by grace, but also that corporeality does not necessarily coincide with the exclusion of localization in any other place. . .

A corporeality which is the actual expression of spirit, though concrete, remains open for maintaining or entering into free and unhampered relations with everything.

In this way the glorified body seems to become the perfect expression of enduring relation of the glorified person to the cosmos as a whole."

Edited June 14, 2009 by kafka

[dairygirl4u2c]

"The transfigured corporeality of which revelation speaks (1 Cor 15) seems to indicate that the body not only obtains a perfect plasticity in relation to spirit [or soul] of man as supernaturally perfected and divinized by grace, but also that corporeality does not necessarily coincide with the exclusion of localization in any other place. . .

A corporeality which is the actual expression of spirit, though concrete, remains open for maintaining or entering into free and unhampered relations with everything.

In this way the glorified body seems to become the perfect expression of enduring relation of the glorified person to the cosmos as a whole."

and that sounds a lot like what they are finding with quantum mechanics. something can be in one place and affect or be in another place at the same time, at least at the quantum level. they are able to teletransport (well, copy and then replacate) atoms over space. etc

it could be that our perception of reality is only a dim mirror of the hereafter, as they like to say. much like we're made in the image of God, but not really just like God. it's all like a shadow.

[Guest Jon]

What, then, do you make of -the Kingdom of Heaven is within?

[dairygirl4u2c]

i'd say, the essence of heaven is at our core.
but, to take that too literally would leave no answer to what happens, where we go when we die etc.
i mean, 'it's within us' is nice and sound0bitey and all. even as i agree with it. but ya can't take it too far or it's left with that shallow ring implication that it often gets criticized for. and it taints the whole idea of the 'it being within'

unless, a person were to say 'it's within, and heaven isn't any place, but in one's mind, one's control etc'. in that sense, i guess, it might be possible to be more insistent on it being 'within'-- if it's meant in that sense. these senses must be clarified or it'll be unsuitable for mass consumption.
orthodox christianity just won't budge on the idea that there's a physical aspect to it. i dont take firm positions.

[Guest Jon]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1890147' date='Jun 14 2009, 12:24 AM']i'd say, the essence of heaven is at our core.
but, to take that too literally would leave no answer to what happens, where we go when we die etc.
i mean, 'it's within us' is nice and sound0bitey and all. even as i agree with it. but ya can't take it too far or it's left with that shallow ring implication that it often gets criticized for. and it taints the whole idea of the 'it being within'

unless, a person were to say 'it's within, and heaven isn't any place, but in one's mind, one's control etc'. in that sense, i guess, it might be possible to be more insistent on it being 'within'-- if it's meant in that sense. these senses must be clarified or it'll be unsuitable for mass consumption.
orthodox christianity just won't budge on the idea that there's a physical aspect to it. i dont take firm positions.[/quote]

[color="#000080"]Very thoughtful, dairygirl, :) -I did respect very much that you 'don't take firm positions' ---don't you find that to be so important to keep our minds open? I do. I mean people pride themseves on their "firm" beliefs and all ---but -sometimes there is more to the story ---there are deeply profound, esoteric insights that Jesus just could not express to the peasant multitudes - they got the parables and even the closest to Him He couldn't express everything to ( Ex: John 16:12 There are so many things I want to tell you - but you can not bear (grasp) them now. At His last supper)

I do indeed take the Kingdom of God or Heaven "is within" literally - but as Westerners we don't really "get it".
We don't follow the (also) deep meaning behind -[b]Be still and know that I am God[/b]. Westerners don't sit still and meditate, pray, contemplate as much as we should. (That's a generalization I know)

There are mysteries all around us - do you know the poem by William Blake?
[b]To see a world in a grain of sand.
And a heaven in a wild flower.
Hold infinity in the palm of your hand
And eternity in an hour. [/b]

There is much to understand by being still to "get" what were the deeper meanings to many of our Master's Words.
Went onto a tangent, I guess.

God bless,
Jon[/color]

[kafka]

[quote name='Jon' post='1890136' date='Jun 14 2009, 01:18 AM']What, then, do you make of -the Kingdom of Heaven is within?[/quote]
'Kingdom of Heaven' has many levels of meaning and Our Lord uses the it to refer to different dimensions or phases of one ultimate reality.

You have to read that quote from Luke 17: 20-25 carefully and pray over it, and try to place it in the context of what Our Lord is teaching:

{17:20} Then he was questioned by the Pharisees: “When does the kingdom of God arrive?” And in response, he said to them: “The kingdom of God arrives unobserved.
{17:21} And so, they will not say, ‘Behold, it is here,’ or ‘Behold, it is there.’ For behold, the kingdom of God is within you.”
{17:22} And he said to his disciples: “The time will come when you will desire to see one day of the Son of man, and you will not see it.
{17:23} And they will say to you, ‘Behold, he is here,’ and ‘Behold, he is there.’ Do not choose to go out, and do not follow them.
{17:24} For just as lightning flashes from under heaven and shines to whatever is under heaven, so also will the Son of man be in his day.


Obvsiously, or perhaps not so obviously Our Lord is teaching that the Kingdom of God is composed of members living in the state of justifying grace, regardless of their external orientation. It also refers to a glorified soul or Angel experiencing immediate vision of God in Heaven. Our Lord emphasizes the Kingdom is first within--Iit is men cooperating with God's grace in the heart and mind first, and thus gracing all external works, practices. External practices and works are dead without at least some cooperation of internal grace.

I think He is also teaching that the Kingdom arrives in phases. At first it is unobserved; unoticeable, like a mustard seed, then it grows via the Sacraments, the Church teaching, and men responding to God's continual offer of grace through Christ throughout the ages, etc. and finally becomes definitively and irrevocably visible througout the earth upon the event of Christ's Return (the Second Coming).

I'm sure 'the Kingdom of God is within you' means much more than I could possibly think of.

Edited June 14, 2009 by kafka

[Guest Jon]

Exellent post, Kafka! Thank you. :)

Jon

Edited June 14, 2009 by Jon