Proof - Catholic Charismatics Derived Protestants

[Bruce S]

[quote]Obituary: Florence Dodge / Protestant who inspired Catholic charismatics

By Ann Rodgers, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

[b]Florence Dodge, a [color=red]Protestant prayer group leader [/color]who had a hidden role in igniting the Catholic charismatic movement, [/b]will be remembered Sunday in an ecumenical memorial service at Mount St. Peter Catholic Church, New Kensington.

Miss Dodge, 85, died Jan. 17 at Presbyterian SeniorCare in Oakmont.

[b]"Her home was like the stable in Bethlehem," said Patti Gallagher Mansfield, who wrote a history of the Catholic charismatic movement, "As By a New Pentecost."[/b]

"It was kind of a hidden place and was like a cradle that gave birth to a movement,"

[b]The movement, which now claims 119 million Catholics in 235 countries, began in Pittsburgh in 1967.[/b] Its distinguishing belief is that the Holy Spirit still works through supernatural manifestations, including speaking in tongues and healing.

The well-known story is that it began in 1967, among a group of Duquesne University students on retreat at the former Ark and Dove center in Pine. [b]But that revival might not have broken out if some theology teachers at Duquesne had not first attended a prayer meeting at Miss Dodge's home in Ross.[/b]

She never touted her role in one of the greatest movements in modern church history, said her nephew, Christopher Dodge, of Philippi, W.Va. [b]He learned of it primarily through Vinson Synan, a leading historian of Pentecostalism, for whom he arranged an interview with his aunt in 1991.[/b]

"The name of Flo Dodge will forever be written in the annals of revival as one of the most important home prayer gatherings ever held," Synan wrote for her memorial service.

[b]Miss Dodge was raised in a devout Presbyterian home in Ben Avon[/b], Dodge said. After high school she went to work for Kaufmann's department store, eventually becoming responsible for the training of 5,000 employees.

[b]In 1962, possibly through contact with the nascent charismatic movement in the Episcopal Church, she received what charismatics call "the baptism of the Holy Spirit," leading to a deeper spiritual life and manifestations such as speaking in tongues.[/b]

She started a prayer group in the Ross townhouse she shared with her mother.

Meanwhile, some theology professors and instructors at Duquesne were reading about the charismatic movement and asked an Episcopal priest if he knew of any local groups. The priest had a parishioner who attended Miss Dodge's, Mansfield said.

On Jan. 13, 1967, two Duquesne theology professors, a theology instructor and one of their wives went to her prayer group.

It was customary for members of the prayer group to lay hands on those seeking baptism in the Holy Spirit. [b]But when one of the Catholic visitors requested it, Miss Dodge insisted that no human being touch them during the prayer. She understood that something important affecting the Catholic Church was about to take place and did not want any Protestant to be able to claim credit for having laid hands on the Catholics.[/b]

"It was important to her that this be a sovereign act of God, and that they receive this gift directly from God," Dodge said.

Those theologians were instrumental in the famous retreat that was held at the Ark and the Dove a short time later.

Miss Dodge took early retirement that year and enrolled in the Elim Bible Institute, a Pentecostal school in Lima, N.Y.

She returned to the Pittsburgh area in 1971 and founded the Lydia Fellowship, a women's prayer movement that spread to six states.

Eventually an international group complained that she was using its name. In characteristically self-effacing fashion, she handed control of her own organization to the other group and simply walked away, Dodge said.

[b]In her later years she joined the Covenant Church of Pittsburgh, an independent charismatic church in Wilkinsburg.[/b]

But she also attended the charismatic prayer meeting at Mount St. Peter, a Catholic parish close to her home.

Vera Swergol, who also belonged to that prayer group, had no clue of Miss Dodge's role in her own church's history until 17,000 Catholic charismatics honored her at a 25th anniversary meeting of the movement in Pittsburgh.

"You saw her love of God in a very deep way," Swergol said.

Mansfield, who heads the Catholic charismatic office of the Archdiocese of New Orleans, finds it fitting that Miss Dodge will be honored in a Catholic church.

"This dear and saintly woman, while remaining true to her own denomination, was a beautiful servant to her Catholic brothers and sisters. She welcomed us like she welcomed Jesus," Mansfield said.

Miss Dodge is survived by a sister, Priscilla Gardner, of Bedford, Bedford County.

The memorial service will begin at 2:30 p.m. [/quote]

Now, since all this happened just a FEW MILES from my home, and most of those institutions and church's are familiar to me, AND being an intensely interested Pentecostal..

AND....

Having had Catholics here just about SNEER at me when I have alluded to the role of Protestants in the formation of Charismatic Catholicsm.

I just found this today, and wanted to share it with the "we are always right" gang, to prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt that the ENTIRE Charismatic Catholic movement derived from ...

Not Rome, that one is for sure.

I guess there won't be many more memorial Masses offered, but there should be.

As I said, my local Pentecostal church is 60% former Catholic, so this is well known locally, if not beyond Pittsburgh.

Edited March 28, 2004 by Bruce S

[IrishG8s]

Sounds kind of odd to me but I know a Charasmatic Catholic group and they were started straight from Catholics. They even went to rome to get approved!
-IG-

[Brother Adam]

Interesting read...but what point does it prove? Protestants have an influence on Catholics? Duh.

[luciana]

What about this quote though?:

"It was customary for members of the prayer group to lay hands on those seeking baptism in the Holy Spirit. But when one of the Catholic visitors requested it, Miss Dodge insisted that no human being touch them during the prayer. [b]She understood that something important affecting the Catholic Church was about to take place and did not want any Protestant to be able to claim credit for having laid hands on the Catholics.[/b]
'It was important to her that this be a sovereign act of God, and that they receive this gift directly from God,' Dodge said."

I guess the only way she could get credit for the movement is that she invited those Professors and their wives there. The work was done by God and not her.

I always figured the Catholic Charismatic movement was inspired by seeing it in Protestant congregations, but many Catholiocs have made it part of their own. I know of some Catholic Charismatics who are very Catholic and loyal to Rome.

[Bruce S]

The Holy Spirit isn't OWNED by a denomination. He doesn't tithe to any of us...

And frankly, that is the entire theme of my participation here too, that Christianity isn't fully contained in any denomination, the "Church" is that universal body of believers who profess to Jesus, follow the main creeds, and are in union with the scriptures as they are understood by [and I give full credence to Catholic history here] the earliest followers of Christ [who were, FIRST Messianic Jews, later, Greek Orthodox, then finally, Roman Catholics]

One needs to understand and accept that ALL of the denominations, from Messianic Jews, to Catholics, to Orthodox, to modern Pentecostals seek God, love Jesus, and have a 'little of the puzzle' that Jesus bequeathed to us.

That is why I weekly participate with Presbyterians, Catholics, Pentecostals, and Messianics. To gleen out of each denomination the best that each has, the understandings that one might have the others lack.

To live in the world of one, is just so shallow. The world is so much richer, more colorful, deeper with a finger in many ponds....

Edited March 28, 2004 by Bruce S

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote]To live in the world of one, is just so shallow. The world is so much richer, more colorful, deeper with a finger in many ponds....[/quote]

[b]Rom: 8 14-17

Children of God[/b]

[quote]"Everyone move by the spirit is a son of God. The Spirit you recived is not the spirit of slaves bringing fear into your lives again; it is the spirit of sons, and it  makes us cry our, 'Abba, Father!' [b]The Spirit himself and our spirit bear [u]united[/u] witness that we are children of God[/b]. And if we are children we are heirs as well: heirs of God and coheirs with Christ, sharing his suffering so as to share his glory."[/quote] (Bold and underline added by me)

I thought you said you studied Romans? You are either a spiritual man or a man of this world. You can't be both!

God is One, His Church is One, He wants us all to be One in Him!

You should already know this?

God Bless
Jason

Edited March 28, 2004 by Jason

[Bruce S]

[quote]I thought you said you studied Romans? You are either a spiritual man or a man of this world. You can't be both!
[/quote]

Really?

[quote]Romans 7

14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[1] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. [/quote]

Sounds to me like Paul UNDERSTOOD that man is flesh AND spirit, in a never ending battle....

PS: unlike some here, I can relate to Paul's battle. Of course Jason, give it a few decades more of living, amazing how that will beat the uncertainty out of you...

[Livin_the_MASS]

Your starting another topic?

[b]Romans 8:9[/b]

[quote][b]"Your interests, however are not in the unspiritual, but the spiritual, since the Spirit of God has made his home in you. In fact unless you possessed the Spirit of Christ you would not belong to him"[/b][/quote]

Bold added by me

I know what Paul was saying in your quote between the flesh and spirit. Thats a constant battle. Thats what we have confession for! Because we need it.

My above quote proves my point

God Bless
Jason

[Bruce S]

Jason, what is it with your need to be 100% right all the time?

Uncertainty is good, live a little.

Rome is Rome, it really doesn't have to be consistant. I'm comfortable with them having trouble with this, after all, we are dealing with God, if ANYONE, including Rome FULLY understood God, they would BE God.

Pray on that one.

[Livin_the_MASS]

I'm not right, Christ's Catholic Church is right!

I don't care about me, I'm nothing but a sinner.

I'm defending His Church that your attacking.

I've given witness to the Truth.

You can't argue the Truth!

I take it as your here to attack more than learn! Yes? No?

God Bless
Jason

Edited March 29, 2004 by Jason

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Mar 28 2004, 04:02 PM'] the earliest followers of Christ [who were, FIRST Messianic Jews, later, Greek Orthodox, then finally, Roman Catholics]
[/quote]
Hehe.. You are too denominationally minded in my opinion Bruce.
The Church of Rome was established by the Apostles. Peter and Paul died in Rome. Paul wrote a letter to the infant Church of Rome. The Greek Orthodox Church is an ethnic, national Church, just because many of the early Christians spoke Greek doesn't mean they were Greek Orthodox, they were Catholic. Katholikos, as they would say. There was yet no Greek schism. And the Messianic Jews of today are not the same as the early Jewish converts. You can re-establish Christ's Church 2,000 years later. It was already established and that's it. This is part of the problem with the typical protestant idea of recreating the Church that Christ established. He already did it, he doesn't need some zealous young man fresh out of seminary with his Bible under his arm ready to figure it all out and redo it for him. The Church is the Church. Christ founded His Church upon the Apostles and there has been succession, its all good.
And from the beginning there were Jews, Greeks, Romans, Africans, etc. It is said that the Apostle Thomas founded the Church in India so there were even Indians. You can't break the Church up into ethnic groups and say that one has primacy. There is neither Jew nor Greek, etc.. Those who are in Christ have died. At baptism we died, and were raised with Christ and now we are messianic Jews. Not as sons of the flesh but as sons of the promise. In Christ we are sons of Abraham, our father in faith. And there is neither Greek nor Jew. But unfortunately Bruce, there is apostasy, heresy and schism.

God bless.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Mar 28 2004, 06:17 PM'] if ANYONE, including Rome FULLY understood God, they would BE God.

Pray on that one. [/quote]
The Church has never claimed to FULLY understand God. If this was so there would be no need for Theology and development of doctrine. Our understanding of what God has revealed deepens on an individual level when we study, pray and are given illumination from above. And on the corporate level the Church's understanding deepens as the mysteries of faith are pondered and expounded upon by the whole Church in union with the Magisterium.
But the deposit of faith is definitive. But also remember that this deposit of faith IS Jesus Christ. It's not merely the contents of a book, even the Bible, which is God breathed. But it is the entire person of Christ present in the Word, in the Sacraments, in the People of God, speaking in and through His Church.
The Church teaches that our knowledge of God on earth is pale in comparison with the beatific vision. But Christ has entrusted to His Church that which is necessary for salvation, edification and our spiritual and moral well-being.

As an example. Christ revealed that God is Triune, but it wasn't revealed in a systematic way. Later the Church discerned and developed a way of articulating this truth and began to expound upon it. Hence we have the Trinitarian dogmas and the profound treatises of the Fathers on this Mystery. Yet, no one would dare claim that they fully understand the Trinitarian Nature of God.

[Theoketos]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Mar 28 2004, 06:17 PM']after all, we are dealing with God, if ANYONE, including Rome FULLY understood God, they would BE God.

Pray on that one.[/quote]
Because God's Being is His essence and we are unable to truly wrap our heads around God.

This is why we must speak of His attributes analogously as opposed to univocally or equivocally.

This is to say that for example God’s Love is like Human Love, though it is slightly different as God’s Love is prefect. And though it is slightly different they are still related and not completely separated in meaning.

This why Theology and philosophy are so important. They begin to teach us means to describe God, even though we may be describing what He is not.

mystery of the Which brings me to the point about mystery. The Church is awesome as involves the divine matters which are always out of the Grasp of human intellect.

[PedroX]

Bruce,

For the record I have never denied that the Charismatic movement is fully influenced by the Protestants. They were doing it for a good 60 -75 years before the Ark and Dove started doing it. However, I must confess I don't fully understand what you're driving at. I know I'm not to bright, but help me out here, please.

peace...

[ironmonk]

ERRORS OF CHARISMATICS
byFr. William Most

Alan Shreck, in "Catholic and Christian" (Servant, 1984) says on p. 11, in
a quote from "Kilian McDonnell, O.S.B.", "Indeed the historical
churches, Catholic and Protestant, owe a debt to classical Pentecostals
for witnessing to the role of the spirit and his gifts." This is said to
be necessary for the "full gospel".

COMMENTS: Kilian McDonnell, on p. 1 is called "leading Catholic
ecumenist." He is also a leading Charismatic - one of the editors of
"Fanning the Flame," Liturgical Press, 1991. Both that booklet and
Schreck's work are striving hard to convince all that charismatic things
are needed for the "full gospel." They seem to say that charismatic
phenomena are merely the actualization of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit,
received at Baptism.

We need some distinctions here: In the broad sense, all graces are gifts
from the Holy Spirit. But there are two major categories: (1) Sanctifying
graces - these are aimed at the sanctification of the recipient. The term
Gifts of the Holy Spirit normally refers to these; (2) charismatic graces
- these are aimed at some benefit for the community, not directly for the
sanctification of the recipient. Here are such things as tongues, praying
in tongues, healing the sick.

The kind of phenomena we see at charismatic meetings definitely belong to
the charismatic category - no sign of the sanctifying features regularly
called effects of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit. Surely, no instances of
infused contemplation being given en masse - it never is so given - nor
routinely. The phenomena are tongues, praying in tongues, healing etc.
These are very definitely part of the charismatic category, not the
sanctifying category. So they are not an actualization of the Gifts of the
Holy Spirit, which belong to the sanctifying category. Schreck has jumped
categories.

Further, the mass phenomena of praying in tongues does not readily fit
with St. Paul's injunctions in 1 Cor 14: 27-28 where Paul specifies that
no more than two should speak in tongues, and then only one at time, and
only if there is someone to interpret. The rule is wise - there are cases
where persons who knew the needed languages went to a charismatic
gathering - they found some did praise God well, while others cursed Him.
And letting many at a time speak in tongues hardly fits with St. Paul.
Yes, I know they say that there is difference between praying in tongues
and speaking in tongues. The distinction is probably not important. As we
said above, there have been cases where charismatics have been cursing
God, without knowing what they were doing.

So the thrust to at least imply all Catholics should be charismatic is
invalid. The booklet, "Fanning the Flame," cites a few Patristic texts to
try to prove the same thing - that we have been neglecting things needed
for the "full gospel". (We will return to these texts presently) . But the
texts are insufficient, because few, and not always clear. As we said,
there are two kinds of charismatic graces - the ordinary and the
extraordinary. The latter are such things as tongues, healing the sick,
prophecy. But the ordinary are given to everyone, such as the grace to be
a good parent, a good teacher, a good speaker etc. Schreck and "Fanning
the Flame" seem to mean the extraordinary type.

Something frightening: Our Lord Himself warned (Mt 7. 22-23) that on the
last day He will reject many who worked miracles: "Many will say to me on
that day: 'Have we not prophesied in your name, and cast out devils in
your name, and done mighty works in your name' - and then I will confess
to them: 'Depart from me, you workers of iniquity. I never knew you. '" So
those with extraordinary gifts may not even be in the state of grace -
much less having the actualization of sanctifying graces!

Vatican II, "Lumen gentium" 13 said: "These charisms, whether the most
brilliant or even the more simply and widely diffused, since they are well
accommodated to the needs of the Church, are to be received with thanks
and consolation. However, the extraordinary ones are not to be rashly
sought, nor should fruits of apostolic works be presumptuously expected of
them." [underline added]. Such things as tongues, healing, miracles etc.
are extraordinary. The Council said they are not to be rashly sought -
which is very different from saying all Catholics must have them or they
will lack something needed for the "full gospel".

As to the Patristic texts, as we said, they are few. Fairly clear are
those of Tertullian, St. Hilary, St. Cyril of Jerusalem. But the booklet
admits on p. 18 that: "Both Basil of Caesarea. . . and Gregory Nazianzus.
. . situate the prophetic charisms within the Christian initiation, though
they are more reserved in their regard than Paul." No quotes are given.
Then we see a remarkable admission on St. John Chrysostom, quoted on the
same page, "Chrysostom complained, however 'the charisms are long gone.'"
St. Augustine, in "City of God" (21.5), has to argue strongly that miracles
are possible, against those in his day who denied the possibility. He says
that if they want to say the Apostles converted the world without any
miracles - that would be a great miracle. If there were miraculous gifts
commonly around, Augustine would have merely pointed to them. But he did
not.

As to a debt to classical Pentecostals - in the first decade of this
century a group of Protestants claimed to have miraculous charisms in
abundance. The main Protestant churches did not receive them well, so they
did the usual Protestant thing, they established splinter churches, such
as the Holy Rollers. More recently, perhaps 20 years ago, a group of
Catholics, precisely by contact with the Protestant Pentecostals, began to
claim abundant gifts again. These gifts were routine in the day of St.
Paul - but they faded by the middle of the next century, when the
heretical Montanists claimed to have them in profusion. And that was the
pattern throughout the ages. Thus the Albigensians claimed them again.

Edited March 29, 2004 by ironmonk