My Objections To The Catholic Faith, #2

[Guest ICTHUS-guest]

Question 2.

With this question dealt with, the second presupposition that Protestants hold is that of sola fide. That is, that a man is justified by faith alone, apart from works of any kind.

The basis for this is complex, but I shall try to explain it as concisely as possible.

Romans 3 & 4 make clear that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. It makes it clear that Abraham was justified by faith even before he was circumcised, and that the Christian has righteousness credited to him wholly and perfectly, like Abraham, who “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness”

James 2:14-26 presents the flipside of the coin, and seems at first to be in diametrical opposition to Romans 3 & 4. This passage is often used by Roman Catholic apologists to try to disprove sola fide.

However, the following is a counter-argument by Protestant apologist John Roberson

He pistis = the faith, that faith. "Can faith save him" and "Can that faith save him" would both be legitimate translations. Because James is pitting two different kinds of faith against one another in this chapter (the kind of faith which demons have -- faith without works -- against the saving kind of faith -- faith which produces works), the sense of it is "that kind of faith;" that is, the faith that he says he has when "he has no works." Notice that James emphasizes that he says he has saving faith, rather than emphasizing that he has saving faith, but he needs to be justified by his works, too.

Paul contends that a man is counted righteous (justified) by only faith in the sense of salvation; James contends that a man is counted righteous (justified) by his works in the sense of evidence. Paul speaks soteriologically or metaphysically, James speaks evidentially or epistemologically.

The Council of Trent, however, declares thus.
CANON IX.-If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.
I should also remark that it is an invalid argument to say that the “works of the Law” referred to in Romans 3 & 4 that cannot have any part in justification, are not just those of the Jewish ceremonial law such as circumcision, but also those of loving God and neighbor. Leviticus and Deuterotomy all contain prescriptions that the Israelites are to take care of widows and orphans, give to the poor, and other such works of mercy. It is these works, Protestantism contends, that cannot in any way, shape, or form contribute to justification.
From what I understand of the Catholic position on justification, a man is justified by faith – but not by faith alone. For James says, in James 2, that Abrahams works completed his faith. The Greek here is [font="symbol"]Blepeis h oti e pistiV sunergei toiV ergoiV auto[/font]

The use of the bolded word “sunergei” here denotes a working together. This word is used in context’s such as where St. Paul says “We are God’s fellow workers”, and it denotes a collaboration between two persons.
My question on this topic, then, is twofold
1. The most pertinent question a man could ask: What must I do to be saved?

2. Would it be permissible to say, therefore, rather than “A man is justified [i]sola fide[/i]”, that “A man is justified ‘[i]sola fide obedians’[/i]” (by obedient faith alone). The obedience takes into account the fact that faith and works are married so closely, and reconciles the thought, in my understanding, at least, of Paul and James. If a man can’t be justified by obedient faith alone, then what else is required?

[dUSt]

This belongs in the Debate Table. I'm moving. - dUSt

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='ICTHUS-guest' date='Mar 28 2004, 02:00 PM'] My question on this topic, then, is twofold
1. The most pertinent question a man could ask: What must I do to be saved?

[/quote]
reconcile yourself with God and your fellow man whenever you mortally sin, and maintain obedient faith by responding to God's graces until you die. we are saved "by grace through [obedient] faith"

[quote]2. Would it be permissible to say, therefore, rather than “A man is justified [i]sola fide[/i]”, that “A man is justified ‘[i]sola fide obedians’[/i]” (by obedient faith alone). The obedience takes into account the fact that faith and works are married so closely, and reconciles the thought, in my understanding, at least, of Paul and James. If a man can’t be justified by obedient faith alone, then what else is required?[/quote]
as long as you acknowledge the role of grace in maintaining this faith, then i believe that "sola fide obedians" is a correct statement and a proper understanding of catholic soterology.

[Hananiah]

[quote name='ICTHUS-guest' date='Mar 28 2004, 02:00 PM'] Romans 3 & 4 make clear that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. It makes it clear that Abraham was justified by faith even before he was circumcised, and that the Christian has righteousness credited to him wholly and perfectly, like Abraham, who “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness” [/quote]
From a debate with Jason Engwer, on my website:

"First off, you read Genesis 15:6 as if it said "Abraham believed God, and an alien righteousness was reckoned to him." However, this is not what the Scripture says. It says that Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. The "it" can only refer to Abraham's faith. Thus, the meaning of the text is that God looked at Abraham's faith, and recognized it as an inherrently righteouss quality in Abraham's soul. Thus, there is nothing in this passage which would preclude the possibility that God might, at another time, look at Abraham's, say, love, obedience, or works, and reckon that to him as righteousness as well. This interpretation is supported by the parrallel usage of the construction "it was reckoned to him as righteousness" in Psalm 106:29-31, and as you yourslef have admitted, Genesis 15:6 was not the time when Abraham recieved the once and for all imputation of Christ's righteousness."

[quote]Paul contends that a man is counted righteous (justified) by only faith in the sense of salvation; James contends that a man is counted righteous (justified) by his works in the sense of evidence. Paul speaks soteriologically or metaphysically, James speaks evidentially or epistemologically.[/quote]
The contention that when St. James says that we are justified by works, he is not talking about justification in the sense of salvation, is untenable. 2:24 is the conclusion to an inquiry which St. James began in verse 14 of that chapter. "Can the faith [b]save[/b] him?" Thus, when St. James concludes in the negative, and states that we are justified by works and not by faith alone, he can only mean justification in the sense of salvation.

[quote]I should also remark that it is an invalid argument to say that the “works of the Law” referred to in Romans 3 & 4 that cannot have any part in justification, are not just those of the Jewish ceremonial law such as circumcision, but also those of loving God and neighbor. Leviticus and Deuterotomy all contain prescriptions that the Israelites are to take care of widows and orphans, give to the poor, and other such works of mercy. It is these works, Protestantism contends, that cannot in any way, shape, or form contribute to justification.[/quote]
The phrase "works of the law" does indeed refer to the Jewish law [i]in toto[/i]. It includes the moral precepts of the Law as well as the ceremonial. What St. Paul does not exclude in Romans 3:27 are works of grace, which proceed from charity. If we do not have such works, even a faith strong enough to move mountains is nothing (1 COrinthians 13:2).

[quote]1. The most pertinent question a man could ask: What must I do to be saved?[/quote]
I'll let Jesus Christ answer this one for me.

[quote]Matthew 19, RSV
16 And behold, one came up to him, saying, "Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?" 17 And he said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments." 18 He said to him, "Which?" And Jesus said, "You shall not kill, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, 19 Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 20 The young man said to him, "All these I have observed; what do I still lack?" 21 Jesus said to him, "If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me." 22 When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful; for he had great possessions.

23 And Jesus said to his disciples, "Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." 25 When the disciples heard this they were greatly astonished, saying, "Who then can be saved?" 26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." 27 Then Peter said in reply, "Lo, we have left everything and followed you. What then shall we have?" 28 Jesus said to them, "Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of man shall sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And every one who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for my name's sake, will receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. 30 But many that are first will be last, and the last first.[/quote]

[quote]2. Would it be permissible to say, therefore, rather than “A man is justified [i]sola fide[/i]”, that “A man is justified ‘[i]sola fide obedians’[/i]” (by obedient faith alone). The obedience takes into account the fact that faith and works are married so closely, and reconciles the thought, in my understanding, at least, of Paul and James. If a man can’t be justified by obedient faith alone, then what else is required?[/quote]
I prefer to say we are justified by faith, hope, and love. The crucial distinction between Catholic and Protestant theology on justification is that the Catholic Church that the virtues whereby we are justified are infused into our souls and thus become truly ours, rahter than simply being credited to our account.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote]With this question dealt with, the second presupposition that Protestants hold is that of sola fide. That is, that a man is justified by faith alone, apart from works of any kind. [/quote]

James 3:17-20

"So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead;
Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, [b]and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.[/b] You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble. [b]Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?"[/b]

Jn 14:15- "if you love Me,[b]you wll keep My Commandments"[/b]
Mt 19:16-17 "if you wish to enter into life, [b]keep My Commandments"[/b]

[quote]1. The most pertinent question a man could ask: What must I do to be saved?[/quote]

John 3:5

Jesus answered,"Amen , amen I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit."

You must be Baptized! First off. Believe that God is [b]ONE GOD[/b] three divine persons
Father, Son, Holy Spirit. You must be Baptized in The Holy Trinity Name, " I baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

Also on your question on faith and works Our Lord said a tree is known by the fruit it bears. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.
So that says there is some sort of outward apperance that shows your faith. You can't say I know Jesus and be for abortion, or say I love Jesus and hate your enimes!

The Catholic Church has the fullness of Truth. We have 2000 years of Tradition, we have the sucessors of Peter, right now Pope John Paul II. He is the visible Head of the Church. We have the Sacraments, the most impotant The Holy Eucharist! We believe that He is present Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity under the apperances of Bread and Wine. In John chapter 6 He said "I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is My Flesh for the life of the world." Than He says "Amen, amen I say to you unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his Blood, you do not have life within you." "For my flesh is true food, and my blood true drink." Remember that Jesus said later in Johns Gospel that He is "The Way, the Truth and the Life." Since He is Truth itself He cannot decive nor be decived. He speaks Truth and only Truth and He commanded us to eat His Flesh and drink His Blood or we will not have life within us.

Only The Catholic Church has the fullness of this Truth. Only a Catholic Priest can invoke the Holy Spirit and change them (the gifts of bread and wine) into The Body, Blood , Soul, and Divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

You ask what one must do for Salvation, many things. First Like I said be Baptized.
The Catholic Church teaches after Baptism one must be Confirmed, (Confirmation). Put plainly confirming ones Baptism they go together a seal. At Confirmation you are annoited with chrism oil. Then you must have the Sacrament of Penance to have our sins absolved. !1 John 5:16-17 "If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. [b]There is such a thing as deadly sin[/b], about which I do no say that you should pray. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly."

This is what The Catholic Church call venial, and mortal sin. Mortal sin must be confessed to a Catholic Priest in order to restore ones grace with God. Why a priest? Because he stands in the person of Christ, sameway at Holy Mass, Christ does His work through the priest. Jesus told St, Faustina "Know that I wait for you in the confessional, I borrow the lips of the priest." See one can't just say I'm sorry and that be it. God gave the Sacraments to His Catholic Church for a reason, to be close to us. He knew we would need them! Especially The Holy Eucharist, were God becomes one with man, the closest personal relationship one can have with God! This we stand by This we will profess until He comes again!

Hope this helped
God Bless You,
Jason

[phatcatholic]

icthus,

for an excellent look at the proper interpretation of Romans, i HIGHLY suggest the following article:

[b]--[url="http://www.lumengentleman.com/content.asp?file=rescuing_romans"]Rescuing Romans from the Reformers[/url][/b]

make sure you read it carefully, and that you read the entire thing. it really helped me to sort out the life of Abraham and how he relates to salvation by faith. i pray that you will read it and that it will be edifying for you.

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[Hananiah]

[quote name='Jason' date='Mar 29 2004, 03:04 PM'] John 3:5

Jesus answered,"Amen , amen I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit."

You must be Baptized! [/quote]
A bit of advice, if you don't mind. Before you use John 3:5 with a non-Catholic you should substantiate your claim that it is a reference to baptism. You can do this by appealing to context. Just prior to this statement, Jesus was baptized with water, and He recieved the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove (John 1:29-34 cf. Matthew 3:13-17). So here we have the "water" and "Spirit" mentioned in John 3:5. Then immediately after this statement, Jesus and the disciples beging baptizing people with water (John 4:1-2). This is a clear indication of how we are to interpret John 3:5.

[Livin_the_MASS]

I can't make anyone happy?

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Hananiah' date='Mar 29 2004, 05:16 PM'] A bit of advice, if you don't mind. Before you use John 3:5 with a non-Catholic you should substantiate your claim that it is a reference to baptism. You can do this by appealing to context. Just prior to this statement, Jesus was baptized with water, and He recieved the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove (John 1:29-34 cf. Matthew 3:13-17). So here we have the "water" and "Spirit" mentioned in John 3:5. Then immediately after this statement, Jesus and the disciples beging baptizing people with water (John 4:1-2). This is a clear indication of how we are to interpret John 3:5. [/quote]
Ah! Hananiah, that's excellent advice. Having debated Baptismal Regeneration before with a Calvinist, they posit some sort of 'amniotic fluid' argument that the 'water' referred to in John 3:5 is actually referring to being born of the flesh - they correspond 'what is born of flesh, is flesh' with "you must be born of water", and 'what is born of Spirit is Spirit' with "you must be born of Spirit"

This approach, however, reduces that argument to foolishness. Thank you.

[quote]I prefer to say we are justified by faith, hope, and love. The crucial distinction between Catholic and Protestant theology on justification is that the Catholic Church that the virtues whereby we are justified are infused into our souls and thus become truly ours, rahter than simply being credited to our account. [/quote]

How can this be, when the Scriptures make it clear in Romans 4, and elsewhere, that it is [i]faith[/i] (but not faith alone, rather, faith that is obedient) that justifies us? Certainly, the faith that we have is coupled with works of Love, and is sustained by grace, which gives us Hope, but it is the [i]Faith[/i] that does the justifying.

[quote]The phrase "works of the law" does indeed refer to the Jewish law in toto. It includes the moral precepts of the Law as well as the ceremonial. What St. Paul does not exclude in Romans 3:27 are works of grace, which proceed from charity. If we do not have such works, even a faith strong enough to move mountains is nothing (1 COrinthians 13:2).[/quote]

Hananiah, can you elaborate on this a bit? In what way are works of the Law, different from works of grace, when they would seem pretty much the same thing, at least to an outsider?

Also, another question.

1. Romans, taken as a whole, makes it clear that even in the Old Testament, those who were saved, were saved by [i]faith[/i]. Were they, then, under the Law? In what way were they under the Law if they were saved by Faith?

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote]we are saved "by grace through [obedient] faith"
[/quote]

Just so that I'm not assuming too much, does the Catholic Church teach:

faith + works = salvation OR faith = salvation + works ?

Or is this too simplistic?

Edited March 31, 2004 by dairygirl4u2c

[Bruce S]

Is anyone going to include TRENT in this thread, or are we ignoring that one?

Just to keep some balance here in this thread....

[Jake Huether]

I just thought that it was very ironic that Protestants hold "faith alone", when it was precisely a lack of faith in the Catholic Church which lead to the reformation?

[Bruce S]

[quote]I just thought that it was very ironic that Protestants hold "faith alone", when it was precisely a lack of faith in the Catholic Church which lead to the reformation?[/quote]

GOD's church existed then, and does now. Man mucked it up, it just need some redefining...

And those Reformers reformed twice, both externally, AND internally as a reaction to the exit door 1/2 of all Christians took back then.

The Catholic Church should cannonize Luther for his efforts that resulted in a much healthier Catholic Church!

[Jake Huether]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' date='Mar 31 2004, 11:39 AM']
Just so that I'm not assuming too much, does the Catholic Church teach:

faith + works = salvation OR faith = salvation + works ?

Or is this too simplistic? [/quote]
I would think that it is a bit to simplistic.


Try:

FaithXwork = Salvation (almost like WorkXdistance= Power).

Or...

dFaith/dwork = salvation (like dx/dt = Velocity).


But I'm sure that faith and work are both on the one side of the equation. You can't say that faith produces works. Because works are a part of what defines faith. There is no faith without works (as we know).

All equations actually are inadiquate but if we look at my first analogy, I think it might work quite well...

You see: The Word of God states that each person will be judged based on his deeds. And so we can presume that the person who has produced the most works through his faith will be rewarded more than one who has produced little work through faith. This means that Salvation (or the reward) could be divided by work, which would be a good indicator of the Faith of an individual.

Faith = Salvation/work.

And then the Teacher, God, has descided what an "F" is, so that if you divide Salvation by work and get a percentage of 50 or less, then you have very little faith, and are bound for hell.


Just my observation...

[Bruce S]

Belief IN and confession TO Jesus of sins = salvation.

Works flow FROM and subsequent TO.